BTL (Back To Lay) Traders

The sport of kings.
andyfuller
Posts: 4619
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

Ferru123 wrote:If the horse refuses to run, though, don't you lose your entire bank?

Jeff
It would be complete madness to use your entire bank on a strategy like this as if you get it wrong once you would blow your bank :!:

You just use part of your bank, the amount which you think is appropriate.
Human123
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:44 pm

From the OPs strategy he is giving himself odds of 1.50 to achieve the trade.

thats if you let the bet ride, if your watching the race and have bet angel handy you can exit out at a stop loss of maybe 50% of the stake?

that way your giving yourself odds of 2 to achieve the trade which is pretty good odds considering the OPs strikerate!
Zenyatta
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm

[quote="Ferru123"]Hi Zenyatta

Is your thinking behind this approach that the market will generally move towards the horse's true price?

Jeff

[quote]

The market should get more accurate closer towards the race. So if a trade is based on a knowledge of horse racing, try to trade it first, and if that fails, put it in play (only put it in play, of course, if the trade *is* based on a knowledge of horse trading, otherwise do the opposite).

I'm very skeptical that cold trades (done without any knowledge of horse racing) can turn a profit. I note that cold traders only report a ROI of 0.5-1%, which tells me that the signal to noise ratio in the technical indicators must be very very weak, if present at all, and in fact its possible that these cold traders are just deluding themselves and any profit they get is actually due to additional info (indirect or direct knowledge of the horses in a few of their trades).
Online Trader
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:13 am

I think you have to trade the way that suits you best

I have tried the blind pre race trading/scalping and to be honest it was not successful and I did not enjoy it.

Also it goes against any of my logic to be risking hard earned without having some knowledge of what I am risking it on :?:

To have to sit and trade 20 races per day to achieve a ROI of 0.5 - 1% does nothing for me

However I am not going to preach as I know it works for some and if it does then that is great

As for staking, for me it is generally a fixed stake of 20 points per trade.

Wipe Outs are of course inevitable but as long as they can be kept to a level where by they are covered with profits then I am OK, so far so good 8-)

As for specialising in All Weather racing again it won’t suit everybody but think about the variables, there are only 4 tracks and as I tend to look at sprints you find that these All Weather warriors race against each other time and time again and you can soon pick up on their style of racing

I am happy to answer any questions but I will not be posting any more selections as I am sure you can appreciate posting them on a public forum can have an effect on getting bets matched as this has happened to me on another popular forum that I frequent. ;)
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi Zenyatta

I disagree.

There are consistently successful traders (including Peter Webb) who don't study a horse's form before trading it.

Also, you are assuming that the Betfair price will gravitate towards the true odds, rather than being hype-driven. I would say that, if you've got a low-priced favourite ridden by Tony McCoy and backed by every newspaper, it will probably steam regardless of its true form. Also, you often see horses drift like bargepoles, only to win handsomely (making you wonder if someone knew something and deliberately mislead the market!).

Jeff
Zenyatta wrote:
I'm very skeptical that cold trades (done without any knowledge of horse racing) can turn a profit. I note that cold traders only report a ROI of 0.5-1%, which tells me that the signal to noise ratio in the technical indicators must be very very weak, if present at all, and in fact its possible that these cold traders are just deluding themselves and any profit they get is actually due to additional info (indirect or direct knowledge of the horses in a few of their trades).
enzabella2009
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm

Start time Settled date Profit/loss (£)
Horse Racing / Sedge 27th Apr : 2m1f NHF 27-Apr-10 20:20 27-Apr-10 20:29 £4.76
Horse Racing / Nott 27th Apr : 1m Class Stks 27-Apr-10 20:05 27-Apr-10 20:11 £-2.98
Horse Racing / Sedge 27th Apr : 2m1f Hcap Hrd 27-Apr-10 19:50 27-Apr-10 19:58 £2.99
Horse Racing / Nott 27th Apr : 1m2f Hcap 27-Apr-10 19:35 27-Apr-10 19:44 £4.80
Horse Racing / Sedge 27th Apr : 3m4f Hcap Chs 27-Apr-10 19:20 27-Apr-10 19:32 £-2.24
Horse Racing / Nott 27th Apr : 1m2f Hcap 27-Apr-10 19:05 27-Apr-10 19:15 £17.95
Horse Racing / Sedge 27th Apr : 2m4f Nov Chs 27-Apr-10 18:50 27-Apr-10 18:56 £0.59
Horse Racing / Nott 27th Apr : 5f Mdn Stks 27-Apr-10 18:35 27-Apr-10 18:37 £1.15
Horse Racing / Sedge 27th Apr : 2m4f Sell Hrd 27-Apr-10 18:20 27-Apr-10 18:27 £2.89
Horse Racing / Nott 27th Apr : 5f Hcap 27-Apr-10 18:05 27-Apr-10 18:09 £1.86
Horse Racing / Sedge 27th Apr : 2m4f Mdn Hrd 27-Apr-10 17:50 27-Apr-10 17:57 £-15.14
Horse Racing / Nott 27th Apr : 5f Mdn Stks 27-Apr-10 17:35 27-Apr-10 17:42 £15.45
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 6f Hcap 27-Apr-10 17:30 27-Apr-10 17:32 £5.73
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 1m3f Hcap 27-Apr-10 17:10 27-Apr-10 17:15 £1.26
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 6f Hcap 27-Apr-10 17:00 27-Apr-10 17:03 £4.27
Horse Racing / Winc 27th Apr : 2m Nov Hrd 27-Apr-10 16:50 27-Apr-10 16:55 £3.15
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 1m2f Hcap 27-Apr-10 16:40 27-Apr-10 16:46 £4.24
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 7f Claim Stks 27-Apr-10 16:30 27-Apr-10 16:33 £-2.79
Horse Racing / Winc 27th Apr : 2m Hcap Hrd 27-Apr-10 16:20 27-Apr-10 16:27 £3.85
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 1m2f Mdn Stks 27-Apr-10 16:10 27-Apr-10 16:17 £11.96
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 7f Hcap 27-Apr-10 16:00 27-Apr-10 16:03 £31.40
Horse Racing / Winc 27th Apr : 3m1f Nov Chs 27-Apr-10 15:50 27-Apr-10 15:58 £-1.00
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 1m2f Sell Stks 27-Apr-10 15:40 27-Apr-10 15:45 £4.80
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 1m4f Sell Stks 27-Apr-10 15:30 27-Apr-10 15:34 £11.37
Horse Racing / Winc 27th Apr : 3m1f Hcap Chs 27-Apr-10 15:20 27-Apr-10 15:28 £4.80
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 6f Hcap 27-Apr-10 15:10 27-Apr-10 15:14 £4.80
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 1m2f Hcap 27-Apr-10 15:00 27-Apr-10 15:05 £4.80
Horse Racing / Winc 27th Apr : 2m4f Nov Hrd 27-Apr-10 14:50 27-Apr-10 14:56 £4.80
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 5f Hcap 27-Apr-10 14:40 27-Apr-10 14:42 £4.80
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 1m Mdn Stks 27-Apr-10 14:30 27-Apr-10 14:38 £4.80
Horse Racing / Winc 27th Apr : 2m4f Hcap Hrd 27-Apr-10 14:20 27-Apr-10 14:26 £4.80
Horse Racing / Yarm 27th Apr : 5f Mdn Stks 27-Apr-10 14:10 27-Apr-10 14:15 £4.80
Horse Racing / Ling 27th Apr : 1m Mdn Stks 27-Apr-10 14:00 27-Apr-10 14:05 £4.80

I have not got a clue about horses nearly to 0. I had £143 on my account ( betfair refunds) I had a go on horses yesterday using the same strategys i use in football. I have doubled my bankroll. So I think that proves what ferru123 said about successuful tradings whitout studing the horses form.
Online Trader
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:13 am

enzabella2009

That is good trading mate, well done

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here, as I have said what suits some will not suit others and I am sure there are lot's of traders out there making money with no prior knowledge of horse racing

You do need to look at it on a long term basis though as one good day trading does not mean that you have it cracked :)
enzabella2009
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm

When I entry a football market ( i have 100% aknoweldge of it) I only look at the numbers (odds), the best price where to trade.75% of the time it`s not on the favorite. I dont even bother to see how it ends, I usually walked out 10sec. before kick off. I did the same on horses with the SP feature in my advantage, it worked just perfectly. I cant remember a single Horse name I traded on :D :D . If you have 100% in one day and you manage to go even for the rest of the week well I think I going to invest some more time on horses.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi Enzabella

Sounds interesting.

What's your technique?

Jeff
enzabella2009 wrote:When I entry a football market ( i have 100% aknoweldge of it) I only look at the numbers (odds), the best price where to trade.75% of the time it`s not on the favorite. I dont even bother to see how it ends, I usually walked out 10sec. before kick off. I did the same on horses with the SP feature in my advantage, it worked just perfectly. I cant remember a single Horse name I traded on :D :D . If you have 100% in one day and you manage to go even for the rest of the week well I think I going to invest some more time on horses.
enzabella2009
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm

Hi Jeff, I dont mean to be rude but when you find a good spot for fishing U usually keep it for your self..When the fishing spot is not good anymore, if you clever enough, you will then start to sell it out to others :D :D .
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

You can't blame me for trying! :)

Jeff
enzabella2009 wrote:Hi Jeff, I dont mean to be rude but when you find a good spot for fishing U usually keep it for your self..When the fishing spot is not good anymore, if you clever enough, you will then start to sell it out to others :D :D .
enzabella2009
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm

:D :D ...
rascal01
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:09 pm

how about if i tell you a really good fishing spot....?
enzabella2009
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm

I am very close to 2 major rivers ( for trouts). 5 mins walk for one and 20 min. for the other 1. There is lake garda 30 minutes away and I am also 30 min. away from the sea. east cost. I have a house in the west cost near naples as well where over june we fish tunas. I very well sorted.. thank you anyway.
Zenyatta
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:17 pm

Ferru123 wrote:Hi Zenyatta

I disagree.

There are consistently successful traders (including Peter Webb) who don't study a horse's form before trading it.

Also, you are assuming that the Betfair price will gravitate towards the true odds, rather than being hype-driven. I would say that, if you've got a low-priced favourite ridden by Tony McCoy and backed by every newspaper, it will probably steam regardless of its true form. Also, you often see horses drift like bargepoles, only to win handsomely (making you wonder if someone knew something and deliberately mislead the market!).

Jeff
Zenyatta wrote:
I'm very skeptical that cold trades (done without any knowledge of horse racing) can turn a profit. I note that cold traders only report a ROI of 0.5-1%, which tells me that the signal to noise ratio in the technical indicators must be very very weak, if present at all, and in fact its possible that these cold traders are just deluding themselves and any profit they get is actually due to additional info (indirect or direct knowledge of the horses in a few of their trades).
Jeff, the margins of the trade colders are small enough that all their profits could actually be explained by tiny amounts of external info about form they slipped in, perhaps unconsciously... even just looking at TV pictures of the horses conveys slight information about form.

As to your other sentence, you're right, doing what everyone else is doing is the fastest route to the poor house. But you need a bit more to go on than that I think. :ugeek:
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