Strategy/Edge poll

[Mr.Teeny]

If the trader is already experienced in one market and is told a strategy for another then the answer would be different because they already have most of the fundamentals in their mind. I once heard that a football trader easily picked up pre off trading but a pre off trader struggled with football although I'm not 100% sure how true this is and it would depend on a lot of other factors

I’d have thought it would be easier going the other way, going from pre race to football, though I suppose it depends what you’re into and what you know. Have you ever tried football trading, Alex? Do you follow the sport, know much about it ?

I think the beauty of pre race is that you only need a small bank to get going. You can turn it over multiple times going from race to race, and in the summer there is a race more or less every 5 minutes, for around 7/8 hours a day. Plus the sheer volume of racing, very few blank days, giving the opportunity to grind out a wage, I can see why it appeals. Same with dogs.

Football is slower moving and less markets. The problem for a newbie I guess is that you can’t do much with a small bank. As you can have funds tied up for quite a while, often have multiple games kicking off at the same time, and as the moves are often smaller, you need to stake bigger to make them worthwhile.

Though I’d have thought the slower moving markets might make it easier for a newbie, and psychologically it may be easier as as you said you can easily hit 5 losers in a row pre race most sessions and that can tilt you. Where as in the slower moving football markets it might be easier to keep your head and stay rational, if that’s what you are struggling with.

[Mr.Teeny]

To keep the thread on topic, in answer to the original question, I voted YES.

If someone gives you a profitable strategy, then you have an edge.

Though as pointed out, there are loads of IFS, BUTS, MAYBES and DEPENDS.

I think you’d definitely have an edge. Though how useful that is to you depends on how often it occurs, when it occurs, how easy it is to get matched, and how ambitious the strategy is and how much interpretation is required by the person executing it.

I’d say if it can be automated then it’s obviously a clear well defined edge. If it can only be done manually, then that would suggest there is still some level of interpretation required from the person executing it, and that becomes a grey area as to whether or not it is actually an edge or not.

[alexmr2]

If the trader is already experienced in one market and is told a strategy for another then the answer would be different because they already have most of the fundamentals in their mind. I once heard that a football trader easily picked up pre off trading but a pre off trader struggled with football although I'm not 100% sure how true this is and it would depend on a lot of other factors

I’d have thought it would be easier going the other way, going from pre race to football, though I suppose it depends what you’re into and what you know. Have you ever tried football trading, Alex? Do you follow the sport, know much about it ?

I would have guessed the same thing. Would it be fair to say that pre off is the most competitive and psychologically testing market in general? I've heard a lot of people (even successful traders) struggling with pre off so moving to other markets or automation.

I chose to put all my focus on pre off manual trading for the same reasons you mentioned as well as not having much interest or knowledge about football

[Mr.Teeny]

I suppose an interest in football would be an advantage, though I’m not totally sure about that. I suppose that’s another reason why pre race is so attractive, in that the people who do the best at it, seem to those who just pure trade with little knowledge of the sport. Maybe that helps psychologically too.

I’d say pre race is very tough mentally. I think it’s the nature of the fast moving markets, and how you can be green one second and building a nice position, only for the market to suddenly turn and shoot off in the opposite direction the next. It can certainly frustrate.

I suppose it all comes down to your own mentality, and how you handle yourself.

I saw on the other thread about how you can feel the market is deliberately being manipulated against you, especially when using bigger stakes, and to be fair, I can relate to that.

However, it’s not true. It just feels that way. Usually, the fact that you have a big stake, or bigger than usual stake in the market, and are still in the red is a sign that something isn’t right. And from there on in, youre damned whatever you do.

If you take the loss, you can end up pushing the price even further against yourself as you try to get out, often triggering other bots which will jump on making you close out for an even bigger loss, this can feel as if you are being manipulated.

Then when you’re out, the prices can suddenly change direction, going past your original entry, and into what would have been a green for you, this also adds to the feeling that you have been manipulated out of your position, though it’s probably just the market correcting itself after you pushed it too far in closing your trade.

On the flip side, if you decide to try and wait, then the reversal never comes, and you are then kicking yourself for not getting out, and are again left with that feeling that someone is out to get you. Where the fact is, you were probably just wrong.

It feels as if you are damned if you do, damned if you don’t. And you will never truly know what would have happened if you didn’t close, or if you just let it ride. That’s what can get to you psychologically, and make it feel as if you’ve been manipulated.


However, you have to get all the conspiracy out of your head. I find the best way to do this is to watch a market that you have no involvement in. You will see that crazy shit happens in every market, whether you are involved or not. I’ve sat there in disbelief sometimes at what I’m seeing, thinking if i was on the wrong side of that, I’d be going nuts now, shouting conspiracy, throwing the mouse at the wall. It helps when you see it happen without being involved, as you know then nobody is out to get you, it’s just what the market does.

The only way you can really control it is to lower your stakes, that takes away the emotion, and it’s then easier to accept that you were just wrong, rather than somebody with a bigger bank has pushed the market against you. And that can help you psychologically.

[Trader724]

What is an edge? What is a strategy? An edge in trading is a situation that happens more often or less often than randomly, an imbalance, and a strategy is the plan through which one can take advantage of an edge. When someone gives you a strategy, they practically tell you what to do to make a profit. Everything related to execution must be included in the strategy. The answer adapted to the way the question was formulated is YES.

[jamesg46]

You're happy to spend hours arguing over a question James, but don't spend much time phasing the question.

I'm not sure why you perceive this as an argument?

[jimibt]

You're happy to spend hours arguing over a question James, but don't spend much time phasing the question.

I'm not sure why you perceive this as an argument?

my eldest and youngest sons used to argue like this all the time -drove the entire house crzy. then, suddenly, once puberty was over ond done with, they melted into their own comfortable skins...

there's hope!!

[jamesg46]

You're happy to spend hours arguing over a question James, but don't spend much time phasing the question.

I'm not sure why you perceive this as an argument?

my eldest and youngest sons used to argue like this all the time -drove the entire house crzy. then, suddenly, once puberty was over ond done with, they melted into their own comfortable skins...

there's hope!!

Creating a poll and having a discussion isn't an argument imo. People turning up with sly comments are potentially trying to cause one though... I guess (based on your comment) that those people haven't yet reached puberty.

[jimibt]

I'm not sure why you perceive this as an argument?

my eldest and youngest sons used to argue like this all the time -drove the entire house crzy. then, suddenly, once puberty was over ond done with, they melted into their own comfortable skins...

there's hope!!

Creating a poll and having a discussion isn't an argument imo. People turning up with sly comments are potentially trying to cause one though... I guess (based on your comment) that those people haven't yet reached puberty.

as an outsider to you and derick (and to a certain extent, pat's) skits, this does feel like an ongoing extension of previous debacles. i'm directed by the content of the thread and picking a few random replies supports (in my head anyway), that opinion:

Considering you guys are yes/no People I'll take that as you haven't a clue. That was petty much the objective. Nice to see Pat turn up, I thought he was intentionally ignoring me. I guess he likes the indirect approach.

I'm not exactly up to date with the latest forum drama, so if this is not a real discussion but something else, then I'm out I guess Have fun.

[Euler]

A profitable strategy can be transient, an edge permanent. An edge could be in execution, information, skill, analysis or a combination of all the above.

I often see people critical of trading going to great lengths to explain why a strategy can't work or is impossible. There I am using that exact same strategy with an edge profitability for over 20 years. I think that's where you see the fuzziness and explains the differential.

[Kai]

Good to see more traders chime in to salvage the thread.

Wouldn't it be nice to leave the small petty stuff out for once in order to try and have a decent constructive discussion for a change

I for one would be interested in hearing how Dallas and Peter would vote to the poll question.

[jamesg46]

my eldest and youngest sons used to argue like this all the time -drove the entire house crzy. then, suddenly, once puberty was over ond done with, they melted into their own comfortable skins...

there's hope!!

Creating a poll and having a discussion isn't an argument imo. People turning up with sly comments are potentially trying to cause one though... I guess (based on your comment) that those people haven't yet reached puberty.

as an outsider to you and derick (and to a certain extent, pat's) skits, this does feel like an ongoing extension of previous debacles. i'm directed by the content of the thread and picking a few random replies supports (in my head anyway), that opinion:

Considering you guys are yes/no People I'll take that as you haven't a clue. That was petty much the objective. Nice to see Pat turn up, I thought he was intentionally ignoring me. I guess he likes the indirect approach.

I'm not exactly up to date with the latest forum drama, so if this is not a real discussion but something else, then I'm out I guess Have fun.

I don't think there is an issue on my behalf. I still have conversations (or try). If people choose to ignore me then I guess the issue is in their head, what that is I'm not exactly sure, you can't get blood from a stone.

I don't think I've had any spat with "Dex" maybe his perception of our interactions is different, I'm not sure. I'll leave it to him to clear up your assumption on that one.

Clearly though Jim, you had to involve yourself with a comment that was aimed to dig at someone, maybe you should reflect on your puberty comment.

[jimibt]

Creating a poll and having a discussion isn't an argument imo. People turning up with sly comments are potentially trying to cause one though... I guess (based on your comment) that those people haven't yet reached puberty.

as an outsider to you and derick (and to a certain extent, pat's) skits, this does feel like an ongoing extension of previous debacles. i'm directed by the content of the thread and picking a few random replies supports (in my head anyway), that opinion:

Considering you guys are yes/no People I'll take that as you haven't a clue. That was petty much the objective. Nice to see Pat turn up, I thought he was intentionally ignoring me. I guess he likes the indirect approach.

I'm not exactly up to date with the latest forum drama, so if this is not a real discussion but something else, then I'm out I guess Have fun.

I don't think there is an issue on my behalf. I still have conversations (or try). If people choose to ignore me then I guess the issue is in their head, what that is I'm not exactly sure, you can't get blood from a stone.

I don't think I've had any spat with "Dex" maybe his perception of our interactions is different, I'm not sure. I'll leave it to him to clear up your assumption on that one.

Clearly though Jim, you had to involve yourself with a comment that was aimed to dig at someone, maybe you should reflect on your puberty comment.

Indeed

[rik]

Of course it depends on the strategy?
If someone gave you a rating system thats profitable and you simply have to back whatever it tells you of course you have an edge.
On the other hand for example I do a lot of in running trading it requires quick and accurate decision making which would be most of the edge rather than the approach.
Also edge will disappear in small markets quickly, in fact a lot if the time i would max out staking for what I believe the market can take so someone else couldnt to have the same result, probably we both start losing lol

[greenmark]

Surely the question is why would anyone share a profitable strategy? At best (if you both execute it the same way) you would halve your profits. And if you share with someone with greater resources, wouldn't you risk being squeezed out completely?
Share to get access to another strategy maybe? So, the only plausible reason to share a strategy is to create a network of similarly talented traders. But I'm still struggling to see why anybody would.
Although I am aware there are syndicates out there, so perhaps it is a reasonable thing to do.
My tuppenneth