Students

[Dobbin]

I'm not sure stealing from OAPs is the best way forward...

Not possible to steal from OAP's as there is no money left

We are borrowing to pay Pensioners.

They at least have paid into the system.

I think that University should be free but without the false target of 50% of school leavers going.

The only way that was to be achieved was by dumbing down the exams

How come a "A" is so good that there is now a Star rating above that.

What good is an "A"

I am an employer and I think that exam results that I have seen are worthless.

My "O" level exams were a lot harder than "A" levels now.

Until they go back to a system where Exam results have some value I will continue to employ people who show some common sense and practical knowledge.

No point in talking a good Job is you cannot put it into practice.

I suppose I could just pay them in theory instead

[Iron]

The system would be much better if grades bore some resemblance to how a student did relative to other students - so if your overall percent for a subject was in (say) the top 10%, you got an A, a B for the next 10%, etc. Otherwise, it makes grades meaningless - if everybody's special, nobody's special...

That would avoid the annual inflation of grades which serves only to allow politicians and headteachers to boast about what a great job they're doing.

I think the modern philosophy of trying to make every child feel wonderfully gifted doesn't help either. The way you help someone fulfill their potential isn't by telling them they're doing great when they're doing ****. I think kids should be taught self-belief, but not by giving them self-delusion. And frankly, a fail is often the reality check you need to pull your finger out and knuckle down...

Jeff

I think that University should be free but without the false target of 50% of school leavers going.

The only way that was to be achieved was by dumbing down the exams

How come a "A" is so good that there is now a Star rating above that.

What good is an "A"

I am an employer and I think that exam results that I have seen are worthless.

My "O" level exams were a lot harder than "A" levels now.

[Dobbin]

LOL

It would be a lot Cheaper to make them all Stupid

That way they would all be equal and nobody would feel left out

[Predicton]

Ahhh, the sweet sound of class struggle

[Dobbin]

LOL Prediction

No struggle mate.

I am heartened by the fact that The Politicians with University Educations and the Bankers with University Educations were clever enough to create the conditions required to bring the western world to the brink of Economic collapse.

Takes very clever people to screw up so much in such a short space of time.

I take my hat off to them. I am not smart enough to do that.

I only create jobs and give people work.

[Iron]

Dobbin

As an employer, you must also be thrilled about the Equalities Act.

Now there's a clever piece of legislation! Just the shot in the arm British industry needs right now!

Jeff

I only create jobs and give people work.

[Iron]

When the revolution comes, I hope Peter remembers to delete all traces of this discussion!

Jeff

Ahhh, the sweet sound of class struggle

[Dobbin]

LOL

He better Ferru

[CaerMyrddin]

I hope you're right, but I doubt it.

Even if we manage to get through the next few years without another major economic crisis, I think that the balance of world economic power will soon shift from West to East. How can we compete with the likes of China and India, which have increasingly educated workforces that are willing to work at a tenth of our wages?

The likes that wages will keep at this level both in Europe and on Asia are very very low. They will level at some point, you might remember the strikes on China that made many factorys stop earlier this year? That is an advantage that will eventually disappear and asian workers will demand a better life eventually.

I would be more worried with inflaction at that time rather than wages. Basically we complaint that the chinese work force has no rights and that they don't care about the environment when our industries can't compete, but simply forget that if it wasn't like this we couldn't afford our life style because noone would be able to produce at such a low price.

When this shift happens and when it does it is very likely that the cost of energy is soaring, we will probably face a high inflaction period.

Takes very clever people to screw up so much in such a short space of time.

It does takes very clever people to act like world class dummies and don't pay for your mistakes

We are borrowing to pay Pensioners.

They at least have paid into the system.

Well, not enough, I'm afraid. I once read not this one, but something like this:

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/ ... secur.html

And must say it does make sense, because even if you add large productivity gains, it would take an expanding population at all time to afford the system, which we know that doesn't happen.

[rogerpalmtree]

I feel the need to wade in here since there seems to be a lot of bias in this thread. I am one of the younger members of this forum and have in fact only just graduated from uni. As I'm sure someone will ask me if I don't mention it I read politics and philosophy at the Uni of Hull. I'd just like to make a few points in defense of "those bloody lazy students."

I should point out before I start that my views on this matter are not fully formed and I'm not neccesserially saying I'm in favour of completely free Uni education. I'm more just trying to explain why a lot of students are pretty pissed off by the whole situation, and trying to argue that it's not just a case of some spoilt brats wanting a free ride. These points are also in no particular order.

First off you have to consider just how much debt future students are going to be left in when they leave uni. If I'm right figures around the 40k mark aren't going to be rare. It's of course argued that this isn't real debt because this loan is the best deal you will ever get in your life and you will only have to pay off x amount a month. There is some truth in that but I can tell you as someone who still vividly remembers what it was like to be 18 40k feels like A LOT of money to someone that age and this is a psychological barrier which some youths won't be able to overcome. It will, (whether they are logical in there choices or not), genuinely stop some very bright children from going to university.

Also it's not an argument to say "I'm not going to benefit from paying for other people to be educated therefore I shouldn't have to." One the statement isn't true in the first place, and two, even if it were you could apply that to anything. The whole topic is I guess a far broader one about left and right wing politics. But as has already been noted this kind of logic would lead to the conclusion, (that for some messed up reason the right in America seems to agree with), that people shouldn't have access to public health care because "I have the money to pay my own way so it's of no benefit to me to save poorer people's lives." Also Feru I think you are a little confused as, unlike, BetFair , spending taxes isn't always a zero sum game. There are very strong links between how educated someone is and the likelyhood that they will commit violent crimes. It isn't police funding vs student funding as you make it out to be. Not in the long term anyway. Also you seem in favour of giving money to doctors and not students but where do you think future doctors come from?

I do agree that the university system is somewhat inflated and that there are some course, (and unis), out there that maybe shouldn't be. But even here I'd point out that who decides what should be taught. It has been mentioned the part of my degree, (philosophy), is a bit of a waste of time and that more relevant vocational subjects should be taught. There are many that would agree with this but there are also many who take the other view and see the vocational subjects as the "mickey mouse" ones and feel they shouldn't be classed as degree subjects so who decides???

I'm aware that this post is getting lond so I'll wrap it up by just making a general observation that may help you understand why young people get angry. The media as a whole constantly attacks the young for being "lazy" or "having it easy" etc. You have to understand that if you are constantly being subjected to attacks it is only natural to inherrintly be defensive. Can you blame the younger generation for getting pissed off when they are told things like "an A isn't worth anything anymore" or "anyone can get a degree." I've had complete strangers say similar things to me before and it's bloody annoying. I think the media seems confused between the words "easy" and "easier." To get a good mark in a degree is NOT even remotely easy despite what the daily mail may claim, although it may well be easier than it used to be.

I know I've gone on a bit of a tangent here, and probably haven't really covered tuition fees that much. But I thought a general view of what things look like from the other side of the fence may help. sorry for the long post!!!!!

[Exacta]

If the state funds uni education should they then ban them from emigrating to another country to work for the benefit of another economy?

[Iron]

Good point.

BTW, I wonder how long it will be before the EU decides that we cannot discriminate against non-British EU citizens, and must offer a 15 grand loan to every Pole, Estonian or German who wants to study over here...

Jeff

If the state funds uni education should they then ban them from emigrating to another country to work for the benefit of another economy?

[Iron]

Spending taxes isn't always a zero sum game. There are very strong links between how educated someone is and the likelyhood that they will commit violent crimes.

I don't think education makes you less likely to commit crime. It may be that educated people are intelligent enough either not to get caught or not to commit crime.

Similarly, I would dispute the claimed causation underlying the much quoted statistics about graduates' above average earnings. Perhaps they make more money not because of their education, but because of their personal qualities, ie perhaps education attracts people with intelligence, discipline, etc, rather than creating those qualities.

It isn't police funding vs student funding as you make it out to be. Not in the long term anyway. Also you seem in favour of giving money to doctors and not students but where do you think future doctors come from?

We could save a whole load of money by allowing doctors from abroad to come over here, rather than paying for doctors' education...

I do agree that the university system is somewhat inflated and that there are some course, (and unis), out there that maybe shouldn't be. But even here I'd point out that who decides what should be taught. It has been mentioned the part of my degree, (philosophy), is a bit of a waste of time and that more relevant vocational subjects should be taught.

I have a degree in sociology. I'll never forget the funny look I got at the Job Centre when, after graduating, I asked if they had any graduate jobs!

The brutal fact is that industry isn't crying out for people with non-vocational degrees. Yes, there is a need for people with advanced thinking skills, and these can arguably be developed by education. But let's face it - the number of graduates for such roles far outnumbers the number of vacancies.

But if the government were to say 'We'll fund vocational courses at top universities', I wouldn't have a problem with that. But they won't, as it would lead to cries of elitism, and the Tories are terrified of doing anything that might result in them being labelled the Nasty Party!

Jeff

[Euler]

Matt Chapman: -

No it's not students protesting, its just jockey's checking the ground

When pictures appeared of people on the track at Wolverhampton.

[freddy]

in my world it would be like this.
A degree should be a investment in yourself, just like an investment in a buisness.

if i were a bank and a grade A student came to me and said they wanted to go to uni to study architecture then i would consider it a good investment as they have a good chance of paying it back in future.

the same could not be said for some of the micky mouse degree courses you see, they just do not improve career prospects enough to invest in and should be funded by the individual. in some cases they are no more that a hobby / time wasting exercise.

If students had to pay their loans back regardless of their future successes then they would be alot more sensable with their choices.

They key question should be do i need a degree to do what i want to in life and will the investment make me a return in future. If not then get a job.