Hi Giulio, imho you are missing the point here. If you could trade successfully on another exchange there would be no point in trading at betfair, due to the higher charges. It would be great to have a decent competitor against Betfair, because it would make charges come down (we'd hope!).
If a promissing competitor is closing trader's accounts that doesn't make it very promising, does it?
Smarkets begins closing successful accounts
I don't have written permission from the alleged user so I'm not going to comment on it further.
However, I'll comment more generally:
We have 3 independent market makers. We are looking for more; please get in touch if interested.
Betting exchanges are ecosystems and require the right mix of participation to be successful since binary options are zero sum.
We do close accounts for a variety of reasons, but being a "successful" trader is not one of them.
A +£20k account is on the smaller side of our bigger customers.
Jason
However, I'll comment more generally:
We have 3 independent market makers. We are looking for more; please get in touch if interested.
Betting exchanges are ecosystems and require the right mix of participation to be successful since binary options are zero sum.
We do close accounts for a variety of reasons, but being a "successful" trader is not one of them.
A +£20k account is on the smaller side of our bigger customers.
Jason
im guessing jason account was successful, so u do close winning accountssmarkets wrote:I can't comment on or confirm the specifics of James19's case since I don't have permission from him to do so.
We have no policy of closing "successful" accounts. For what it's worth,£20k P&L is not in the top 10.
I'm all for transparency but don't want to get into trouble for over posting on BetAngel. Let me know if you guys have specific questions.
Jason
smarkets wrote:I don't have written permission from the alleged user so I'm not going to comment on it further.
However, I'll comment more generally:
We have 3 independent market makers. We are looking for more; please get in touch if interested.
Betting exchanges are ecosystems and require the right mix of participation to be successful since binary options are zero sum.
We do close accounts for a variety of reasons, but being a "successful" trader is not one of them.
A +£20k account is on the smaller side of our bigger customers.
Jason
lets forget jason for a min, can u give us some of the variety of reasons for closing accounts.
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giulio2010
- Posts: 962
- Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:11 am
James19 has given you the permission to explain the specific case.smarkets wrote:I don't have written permission from the alleged user so I'm not going to comment on it further
I had that point in mind too, but as said before and like my mentor have showed me, there are ways to make the BF charges less effective. Betdaq, Betfair and smarkets they all have the some odds on a specific market but on betdaq and smarkets you cannot place 10,000-50,000 or even 100,000 on big events. James19 has a massive potential and it is a shame if that talent got wasted. He made 20,000 on smarkets, how much would he made if given a 250,000 bankroll on betfair and some other tools to work with?...james19 wrote:I am happy for Smarkets to explain away the specifics of my case.CaerMyrddin wrote:Hi Giulio, imho you are missing the point here
Hi Guys,
I must say that I am surprised and a little disappointed that the CEO of Smarkets is not being more honest with the betangel community.
For 19 days leading up to my exclusion I exchanged emails with Mr Trost, and the issue that he had lay solely with my "trading style" and profitability vs his market makers. Given that there is no other valid reason he could have had for closing my account (personal details and ID documents all in order, and I am not linked to any other Smarkets accounts) I think it is highly misleading for Mr Trost to state publicly that Smarkets does not close the accounts of "successful" traders.
I suggest that the winners they do tolerate in their ecosytem are likely the kind of punters who bet large amounts at unfavorable odds, and are therefore advantageous to the market makers in the long run.
I have just written to Mr Trost to grant him express permission to disclose all the details of my case in this forum. As a trading community with only a handful of exchanges where we can ply our trade, we at the very least deserve honesty and transparency from out operators.
I have also contacted Peter Webb to discuss this case with him. Based on my experience if Peter, or any other successful trader on this forum, were to migrate their activity to Smarkets, they would no doubt encounter the very same experience.
Smarkets indicate that there is little chance of them reversing this decision. Hopefully if they become as big as Betfair, become a sustainable ecosystem in their own right, or even know what's best for them in the long run, they will reverse this retrograde step. I will obviously keep shouting from the rooftops in the meantime.
I must say that I am surprised and a little disappointed that the CEO of Smarkets is not being more honest with the betangel community.
For 19 days leading up to my exclusion I exchanged emails with Mr Trost, and the issue that he had lay solely with my "trading style" and profitability vs his market makers. Given that there is no other valid reason he could have had for closing my account (personal details and ID documents all in order, and I am not linked to any other Smarkets accounts) I think it is highly misleading for Mr Trost to state publicly that Smarkets does not close the accounts of "successful" traders.
I suggest that the winners they do tolerate in their ecosytem are likely the kind of punters who bet large amounts at unfavorable odds, and are therefore advantageous to the market makers in the long run.
I have just written to Mr Trost to grant him express permission to disclose all the details of my case in this forum. As a trading community with only a handful of exchanges where we can ply our trade, we at the very least deserve honesty and transparency from out operators.
I have also contacted Peter Webb to discuss this case with him. Based on my experience if Peter, or any other successful trader on this forum, were to migrate their activity to Smarkets, they would no doubt encounter the very same experience.
Smarkets indicate that there is little chance of them reversing this decision. Hopefully if they become as big as Betfair, become a sustainable ecosystem in their own right, or even know what's best for them in the long run, they will reverse this retrograde step. I will obviously keep shouting from the rooftops in the meantime.
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maycontainnuts
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:58 pm
Begs the question, what actually is your trading style? To be fair to smarkets it would make sense for people to know exactly what you were doing?
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CaerMyrddin
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:47 am
Now that James has explicitly stated his permission it would be interesting to have a proper answer from Smarkets.
Jason did admit they close certain accounts, I'd be interested to know on what grounds!
We moan about BF, but I've only ever heard accounts being closed for fraudulent activities, avoiding premium charge, or abusing their staff after disagreements. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've never heard of BF closing accounts due to someone's trading style
We moan about BF, but I've only ever heard accounts being closed for fraudulent activities, avoiding premium charge, or abusing their staff after disagreements. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've never heard of BF closing accounts due to someone's trading style
I almost exclusively trade soccer markets. I use models to appraise value with the view of entering and exiting the market for profit. If the market does not move in my favor then I hold my value position. It seems incomprehensible that any exchange owner would view this as having an unfair advantage. I guess the Smarkets team has more experience in IT than it does in sports trading else they wouldn't have tried to rope me into assisting them to build a market making architecture that was more difficult for professionals to beat. I told them that no seeded model is ever going to be 100% watertight. For one, you are pitting static algorithmic logic against dynamic human intellect, and there is only going to be one winner in the long run when the automated market makers cannot even begin to comprehend the nature of the 5000 simultaneous events that they are pricing.maycontainnuts wrote:Begs the question, what actually is your trading style? To be fair to smarkets it would make sense for people to know exactly what you were doing?
The logic behind their decision is even more baffling when you consider that Smarkets never personally lost money to me. I estimate to have generated around £5000 in commission over the lifetime of my account.
This is precisely why I was so dumfounded by their decision. I have traded at Betfair and Betdaq for 7 Years without any problem whatsoever, but only lasted a matter of months at Smarkets! Perhaps the Guardian newspaper would be interested in this story? They seemed keen to report on Betfair when they introduced Premium Charge I & II. Even the boss of Smarkets admitted to me in private that this was "a crappy situation to be in".LeTiss 4pm wrote:Jason did admit they close certain accounts, I'd be interested to know on what grounds!
We moan about BF, but I've only ever heard accounts being closed for fraudulent activities, avoiding premium charge, or abusing their staff after disagreements. I'm willing to be corrected, but I've never heard of BF closing accounts due to someone's trading style
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BackHighLayLow
- Posts: 29
- Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 1:30 pm
Not really. A bookie has closed / threatened to close a profitable account. Hardly newsworthy, and the forums really don't get that much traffic.LeTiss 4pm wrote:Good for you mate, for not just disappearing quietly
Many people view BA forums without actually contributing, so the very fact you've raised this issue is absolutely disastrous for Smarkets.
But wait I hear you cry Smarkets are an exchange run by a couple of chaps that look like they have taken far too many drugs in their life, how could they?
Simple, a commercial decision was made that it was more profitable to close the account.
Compared to the PR crisis that was the Betfair PC, this is a tea leaf in a tea cup & will blow over quicker than a paper statue.
What makes me giggle though is the tirade of corporate BS coming from Smarkets on multiple channels ATM.
They should just fess up & move on, as it's better to be a capitalist, than a capitalist that people have no trust { or is that Trost } in.
Last edited by BackHighLayLow on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:36 pm, edited 4 times in total.
This is turning out to be a very interesting thread.
Jason,
Just a thought..
I, like many of the traders on here, am keeping a very close watch on it. James has obviously got an edge (and good luck to him), but I doubt very much whether he is unique in his trading style and that is why we are all intrigued..because none of us know whether we would be closed down too.
I am active in the markets every day and at a guess put >£4m thorough a year through Betfair and I bet I'm not even in the top 200 traders in terms of how much I put through. Given the number of full time traders on the Betangel forum, it wouldn't surprise me if they equate to potential throughput of >£200m a year and they are all reading this thread.. (Peter probably does half that on his own, thinking about it!)
None of us really want to pay betfair 20- 60% on our earnings, so Smarkets did look like a potential long term competitor to Betfair. In particular; and in stark contrast to that of Betfair, your personal involvement in the discussions on this forum has given Smarkets a great deal of credibility so far..it would be a real shame if this took the shine off it.
If there is a particular type of trader that doesn't suit Smarkets, why not be upfront about it or better still see whether you can adapt to accommodate them too?
In conjunction, why not invite a small number of traders to report into a steering committee to see how you could work with us; if you built the business with the traders on you side you will stand a much better chance of it becoming a sustainable business long term
regards
Peter
Jason,
Just a thought..
I, like many of the traders on here, am keeping a very close watch on it. James has obviously got an edge (and good luck to him), but I doubt very much whether he is unique in his trading style and that is why we are all intrigued..because none of us know whether we would be closed down too.
I am active in the markets every day and at a guess put >£4m thorough a year through Betfair and I bet I'm not even in the top 200 traders in terms of how much I put through. Given the number of full time traders on the Betangel forum, it wouldn't surprise me if they equate to potential throughput of >£200m a year and they are all reading this thread.. (Peter probably does half that on his own, thinking about it!)
None of us really want to pay betfair 20- 60% on our earnings, so Smarkets did look like a potential long term competitor to Betfair. In particular; and in stark contrast to that of Betfair, your personal involvement in the discussions on this forum has given Smarkets a great deal of credibility so far..it would be a real shame if this took the shine off it.
If there is a particular type of trader that doesn't suit Smarkets, why not be upfront about it or better still see whether you can adapt to accommodate them too?
In conjunction, why not invite a small number of traders to report into a steering committee to see how you could work with us; if you built the business with the traders on you side you will stand a much better chance of it becoming a sustainable business long term
regards
Peter