Leopardstown - 14:00 - Christmas Hurdle - Voler la vedette

[Euler]

Betfair's life would be so much simpler if they just focused on one thing rather than going for margin and trying to be everything to everybody. I sense this is their strategic achilles heel.

Interested to see that succesful IBAS ruling!

[andyfuller]

so if anyone has a ref number for that race on your log you will have a case and they will have one to answerto.happy punting.

They should remain in the Bet History of your My Account section under voided bets for 3 months.

[superfrank]

Betfair's life would be so much simpler if they just focused on one thing rather than going for margin and trying to be everything to everybody. I sense this is their strategic achilles heel.

what would be ideal would be for them to split off the exchange business (and operate it as a true exchange) and have the fixed odds, casino and games rubbish in another entity - they are very different businesses and require very different approaches.

[cambalache]

in a while I will make available all the emails that went back and forth, I did not have a chance to see the Ibas ruling, for a few days after I made the formal complaint betfair came back with an email of a pology. you can judge for yourself.

[cambalache]

here are the emails I have deleted my name and my betfair account name. THERE IS ONE PRINTED TWICE PLEASE FORGIVE ME


dear sirs

my complaint is a very simple one, you do not want to honour a bet placed in all fairness on a market in running, the race was the 4: 20 at Ayr the bet was taken an duly accepted to back hawkit at 3.9 my log confirms that the bet has been entirely matched and as such you must honour this bet, the technical problems that you might have had can not concern the customers once the feedback comes that the bet has been fully accepted.
could you please rectify this situation


thank you

september 14 2006


Thank you for your e-mail.

We would like to apologise for the delay in settlement which you may
have experienced with the 16.20 Ayr. This was due to a technical
issue which prevented us from turning the race in-play. Ordinarily we
can have the markets settled up within 20 minutes of the result but
in accordance with our Rules and Regulations we needed to void all
bets which were matched after the race had started (16:21:20) as this
was not an in-play market.

There was initially a problem with commission not being refunded
after these bets had been voided but I can confirm that this has now
been resolved.

Please accept our apologies again for any inconvenience caused and do
not hesitate to contact us if we can be of further assistance.

Kind regards

Chantel Kemp

Betfair helpdesk
Helpdesk Tel: 0870 0110 444
Helpdesk Fax: 0870 0110 555
Australia 1-800 759 354
Free Fax (Australia) 1800 068 593


Betfair
PO Box 34467
London
W6 9WS

http://www.betfair.com

Waterfront | Hammersmith Embankment | Chancellors Road

London | W6 9HP





--
On Fri Sep 15 12:35:09 BST 2006, > september 15 2006
>
> dear sirs
>
> I might have sent my complaint email to the wrong address since i
have not had a reply 18 hors later so i will state it again,
> i placed a back bet on the horse hawkit (ayr 4:20 sept 14 2006) it
was an in runnig market, the bet was accepted by betfair as it came
up on my screen as fully matched at odds of 3.9 the horse duly won
and i expected my winnings of 39 pounds to be credited to my account
only to find that they were credited and then taken away without any
explanation whatsoever on calling the helpdesk
> i was told that the reason was a suspended market had occur and
betfair will not honour the bet I would like to question that
position since I have never been able to place a bet in a suspended
market and even if that was the case the fact that you accepted the
bet as fully matched makes the company liable the same as if I made a
mistake placing a bet you would not allow me to go back on my
mistake in short gambling has to be conducted in a serious two way
street manner and as such I am asking you to rcetify this situation
>
> thank you
>
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
__
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
__

dear mss kemp
I am not satisfied with your answer I am not worried about how long it took
to settle my legitimate bet, before going to the arbitrator I like to know
the exact rule and regulation that says that after you have accepted a bet
from a customer you can renege on it and the customer is not at liberty to
invoke the same rule for I have never been able to go to betfair and say
sorry I apologise but I have made a mistake in placing a bet please strike
it off the record and give me my money back as far as I am concerned I
placed a bet that was registered and accepted by betfair an if betfair made
a mistake in accepting it it is betfairs duty to stand by it, otherwise it
would be impossible to bet with any confidence as having a bet taken and
logged does not mean one is assured of being paid if it falls in the
customers favor, my point is I am not going to let it go lightly as I feel
that betfair is breaking the most basic rule of betting between to parties
and if there is a rule that allows it I am going to challange it.

thanking you in advance for your prompt reply



----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: bet settling


> >
> Thank you for your e-mail.
>
> We would like to apologise for the delay in settlement which you may
> have experienced with the 16.20 Ayr. This was due to a technical
> issue which prevented us from turning the race in-play. Ordinarily we
> can have the markets settled up within 20 minutes of the result but
> in accordance with our Rules and Regulations we needed to void all
> bets which were matched after the race had started (16:21:20) as this
> was not an in-play market.
>
> There was initially a problem with commission not being refunded
> after these bets had been voided but I can confirm that this has now
> been resolved.
>
> Please accept our apologies again for any inconvenience caused and do
> not hesitate to contact us if we can be of further assistance.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Chantel Kemp
>

Thank you for your e-mail.

Here is the ruling:

11.3. Matters beyond our reasonable control.
11.3.1. We are not liable for any loss or damage that you may suffer
because of any: act of God; power cut; trade or labour dispute, act,
failure or omission of any government or authority; obstruction or
failure of telecommunication services; or any other delay or failure
caused by a third party. In such an event, we reserve the right to
cancel or suspend our services without incurring any liability.


Please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further
enquiries.

Kind regards

Lee Puddephatt

On Sat Sep 16 12:36:08 BST 2006, > dear mss kemp
> I am not satisfied with your answer I am not worried about how long
it took
> to settle my legitimate bet, before going to the arbitrator I like
to know
> the exact rule and regulation that says that after you have
accepted a bet
> from a customer you can renege on it and the customer is not at
liberty to
> invoke the same rule for I have never been able to go to betfair
and say
> sorry I apologise but I have made a mistake in placing a bet
please strike
> it off the record and give me my money back as far as I am
concerned I
> placed a bet that was registered and accepted by betfair an if
betfair made
> a mistake in accepting it it is betfairs duty to stand by it,
otherwise it
> would be impossible to bet with any confidence as having a bet
taken and
> logged does not mean one is assured of being paid if it falls in
the
> customers favor, my point is I am not going to let it go lightly as
I feel
> that betfair is breaking the most basic rule of betting between to
parties
> and if there is a rule that allows it I am going to challange it.
>
> thanking you in advance for your prompt reply
>
>
> dear sir
please explain which of the reasons listed on your ruling it is that you are
invoking in this particular instance so that I can argue my case in front of
the arbitrator the way it happened my screen showed a perfectly normal
market in play to which I solicited a bet that was taken and confirmed by
your system in its entirety if it would have been a large bet I ll be sick
with anger at the abusive manner in wich betfair is trying to dodge the
issue as it was not a large bet I will persue this as a matter of principle
for it is not right for betfair to dismiss customers in such a despicable
manner I understand that you are not liable if for whatever reason your
system is down but in my case the system was not down so much so that the
bet was taken logged and confirmed that fact alone sir constitutes full
responsability of duty on your part I have always thought very highly of
betfair and expect to continue to do so in the future.

kind regards

dear mr owens
it was very frustrating not to be able to get past the front desk to vent my grivance the only option left open to me was the ibas.
I have gone to these lengths for the simple reason that I felt very strongly about the whole situation, if you are to reassure me that betfair is ready to stand by the human erros made by its staff that will go all the way to restore my full confidence in the company.
I am also happy to accept your settlement offer.

best regards


----- Original Message -----
From: Martyn Owens

Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Dispute on 'In Running' Bet on 16.20 Ayr 14/09/2006





I am writing to you with regards to your ongoing complaint that you have with us regarding your bet on Hawkit for £10 at odds of 4.9 in the 16.20 at Ayr Winner market on 14th September. I believe that you queried our administration of the market with the Helpdesk at the time. I have additionally received details from IBAS that you have raised the matter with it.



I must apologise to you that you have had to go to these lengths, and I hold myself personally responsible for a breakdown in communication within Betfair that has resulted in you having to raise your grievance to IBAS. We do have an internal escalation process, and in this instance the correct course of events did not happen. Had it done so, then I am confident that much of your time spent dealing with this matter could have been spared.



I would like now to try and put the matter to rest, hopefully to your satisfaction.



Due to human error, the market was not administered correctly and in line with the normal processes that we employ when offering a market available for ‘in running’ betting. It is normal practice for a market to be suspended at the start of an event, all ‘unmatched’ bets cancelled and a ‘virgin’ market reopened for ‘In Play’ betting. When a market is ‘In Play’ the ‘In Play’ logo is displayed (a green ‘tick’) to highlight to users that the event is in progress. In this incidence, the operator made two errors. The first was that after correctly suspending the market at the start of the race, he did not cancel ‘unmatched’ bets. This meant that many customers who had placed a bet on a horse’s chance before the race may have had their bets unfairly available for ‘matching’ during the race. Secondly, rather than turning the market ‘In Play’, the market was ‘unsuspended’ (as opposed to being turned ‘In Play’). This meant that no ‘In Play’ logo was displayed. The absence of the logo may have meant that there may have been people without access to a live information feed (commonly a television broadcast) betting on the market oblivious to the fact that the event was in progress.



These two factors led Betfair to ‘void’ all bets placed after the start of the race. I hope that you accept that this action was done solely with the best intentions as we endeavoured to correct our errors fairly and with no bias to the interests of either ‘backers’, ‘layers’ or ourselves. We did this in full confidence (and maintain so) that we were adhering to our ‘Terms and Conditions’ and ‘Rules and Regulations’.



However, I do accept that it is unfair that you lost your ‘winnings’ when you had placed your bet in good faith and oblivious to the errors that had been made. Although, the absence of the ‘In Play’ logo should always be an indicator to a customer that a market is ‘In Play’ (and therefore if it is absent and an event is in progress then it should be noted and queried by the user that something is amiss), I accept fully that to most customers the fact that the market was suspended at the ‘off’ and then reopened about 15 seconds later must have appeared as the normal sequence of events that they experience when a race starts and, therefore, would have understandably assumed that all was in order and that they were betting ‘in running’ on the race.



Therefore, I would like to offer you the sum of £60. This sum compromises of the £39 that you would have won on this bet and an amount as goodwill in light of the time that you have invested in disputing our actions and the distress that this may have caused. As I have said above, this issue should have been picked up as part of our internal escalation process and a more sympathetic judgement call made at the time. I personally would have credited you back with the ‘loss’ on your bet at the time you queried our actions. I hope that this offer is agreeable to you and that it will go some way at least to restoring your good opinion of us.



Please can you let me know if the above offer is acceptable to you and if so I will credit your account at the earliest opportunity.



Yours sincerely,



Martyn Owens



Customer Relations Manager

020 8834 8302



Betfair Limited | Hammersmith Embankment | Winslow Road | London | W6 9HP | Company No. 5140986

[freddy]

They refunded you as a goodwill gesture to make you go away after you kicked up a fuss about it
and thats a very good thing it's always worth sending a few e-mails when you get stiched up by any company.

However I dont think the same would apply to the people who are wanting 23 million paying out.

Sure you might get something out of them if you really push them but i wont be what they are looking for unfortuantly

maybe a nice left over Betfair xmas hamper though

[cambalache]

what would be the use of having an arbitrator then, what I am saying is that it was shit waiting to happen,they should have though of that when they had this small problem with me for as I understand it, they made exactly the same mistake crediting the money to the accounts and issuing a transaccion reference,if this is correct and it had happen to me with a large amount of money I would have taken it to the arbitrator to see what they had to say,their explanation would had to be made public.my argument was that on principle that is not the way to conduct a gambling bussiness and that it should hold true for 39pounds or 23million, if large companies are allowed to corrode the good faith in which the game must be played then there would be no hope for the public at large.

[Iron]

Cambalache

It's possible that Betfair thought 'given the number of manhours we'd have to spend filling in paperwork to explain IBAS what happened, we might as well just refund this guy'.

IMHO, Betfair should either not trade in the markets themselves, or refer all decisions about voiding bets to an independent third party, so there's no conflict of interest.

And frankly, I'm not confident that the Gibraltar Gambling Commission will really stand up to Betfair when push comes to shove. Gambling is a huge industry in Gibraltar (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4776021.stm), so it's in Gibraltar's interest to have a light-touch approach when it comes to regulation...

BTW, I'm surprised that the tax loophole that allows Betfair to dodge millions of pounds of tax by registering in Gibraltar still exists: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011 ... oid-uk-tax

Jeff

[freddy]

cambalache i suspect if it was for a large amount of money it would have been worth betfairs time and money to defend themselves, you may still have been offerd a few quid compensation along the way as obviously a court case is always going costly and damaging to betfairs image, but from a legal standpoint you would almost certainly lose there are many people who have tried before but none have won.

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/3 ... _as_error/

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/4841315 ... id=8211562

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/horser ... nters.html

[Iron]

I wasn't aware that anyone had taken Betfair to court over voided bets.

Do you have any details?

Jeff

From a legal standpoint you would almost certainly lose there are many people who have tried before but none have won.

[freddy]

There would be a reason for that Jeff these stories make the papers and then disapear mainly because on consultaion with Solicitors, they are told they have no chance of ever winning .

But we will see what hapens with the latest events.

[Iron]

So do you know of cases that went to court but quickly disappeared into oblivion, or are you surmising that such cases must exist (even though you don't know of any)?

Jeff

There would be a reason for that Jeff these stories make the papers and then disapear mainly because on consultaion with Solicitors, they are told they have no chance of ever winning

[freddy]

I didn't say they went to court ?, it rarely gets that far usually when you don't really have a case to answer, thats kind of the point im making.

Clearly people have taken legal advise in the past and complained to gambling commission etc about similar cock ups and im sure they will again with this latest fiasco and good luck to them, i would too,
but they will certainly need it .

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/columnist ... -22017274/

[Iron]

Saying that 'there are many people who have tried before but none have won', does kind of suggest that people have taken Betfair to court, but been unsuccessful...

If Betfair settled out of court with them, I'd call that a victory of sorts.

Jeff

I didn't say they went to court

[freddy]

When i said tried, i simply meant taking some legal advice, just the first step in proceedings thats all.

Im sure there have been hundreds of people over the years who have done that and im sure there will be lots more doing it again this week.

and yes ive already agreed there is a chance people will be offerd a few quid compensation and yes that is a victory of sorts.

But i doubt it would be due to the fear of them losing if it did ever reach court,

it all seems very clear cut to me, a simple error caused by Betfair, just like all the other examples from other bookies, the Precedent is set,

but i already know we disagree on that point and if any lawyer agrees with you and thinks they have a case,
then we may well see something happen who knows .