Israel/Palestine conflict

[Derek27]

The leader of Hamas is saying the killing of civilians on 7th october didn't happen.

He also says he's going to launch the attack that didn't kill any civilians again and again!

[greenmark]

The leader of Hamas is saying the killing of civilians on 7th october didn't happen.

He also says he's going to launch the attack that didn't kill any civilians again and again!

You're a clever chap. What on earth does humanity do about these pointless, wasteful conflicts?
It's just a minority bickering while the majority suffer. It's quite bizarre for me.

[Derek27]

The leader of Hamas is saying the killing of civilians on 7th october didn't happen.

He also says he's going to launch the attack that didn't kill any civilians again and again!

You're a clever chap. What on earth does humanity do about these pointless, wasteful conflicts?
It's just a minority bickering while the majority suffer. It's quite bizarre for me.

It's part of life. Conflicts have been ongoing since the stone age.

I don't agree with what many say, that it's pointless using military means to crush terrorists as it just breeds more to replace them. The same could be said about drug dealers. Each time you lock one up another will replace him. You need to lock up the replacements as well.

[firlandsfarm]

Seems to me that the desire to destroy Hamas has unleashed the worst of Israel.
Israel looks like a rabid rottweiler on the rampage.
But I still don't see what choice Israel has.
The leader of Hamas is saying the killing of civilians on 7th october didn't happen.
How can you deal with someone like that?

But it's literally a bloody mess and a terrible waste and that understates the situation but I don't have the vocabulary to describe it.

Israel needs to be careful ... their cries of "foul" because 1,400 of their civilians were killed gets weaker and weaker when they kill 9,000+ civilians! Yes, of course they have the right to defend themselves but do they need to defend themselves from Palestinian civilians?

In a similar way could Hamas claim they have the right to defend themselves from Israeli oppression?

[greenmark]

Seems to me that the desire to destroy Hamas has unleashed the worst of Israel.
Israel looks like a rabid rottweiler on the rampage.
But I still don't see what choice Israel has.
The leader of Hamas is saying the killing of civilians on 7th october didn't happen.
How can you deal with someone like that?

But it's literally a bloody mess and a terrible waste and that understates the situation but I don't have the vocabulary to describe it.

Israel needs to be careful ... their cries of "foul" because 1,400 of their civilians were killed gets weaker and weaker when they kill 9,000+ civilians! Yes, of course they have the right to defend themselves but do they need to defend themselves from Palestinian civilians?

In a similar way could Hamas claim they have the right to defend themselves from Israeli oppression?

We will see. But it seems Israel is intent on dismantling the Hamas infrastructure and haven't they also said Gaza will remain under Israeli control from here on?
This is invasion and occupation. And simply because Hamas lost their minds and made an existential error.
Whatever the truth of the motives, you're right I think that international appetite for what Israel is doing is weakening. It seems Israel's cornerstone support is the US. If that goes I wonder if Israel will look for a ceasefire.

[Archery1969]

Seems to me that the desire to destroy Hamas has unleashed the worst of Israel.
Israel looks like a rabid rottweiler on the rampage.
But I still don't see what choice Israel has.
The leader of Hamas is saying the killing of civilians on 7th october didn't happen.
How can you deal with someone like that?

But it's literally a bloody mess and a terrible waste and that understates the situation but I don't have the vocabulary to describe it.

Israel needs to be careful ... their cries of "foul" because 1,400 of their civilians were killed gets weaker and weaker when they kill 9,000+ civilians! Yes, of course they have the right to defend themselves but do they need to defend themselves from Palestinian civilians?

In a similar way could Hamas claim they have the right to defend themselves from Israeli oppression?

We will see. But it seems Israel is intent on dismantling the Hamas infrastructure and haven't they also said Gaza will remain under Israeli control from here on?
This is invasion and occupation. And simply because Hamas lost their minds and made an existential error.
Whatever the truth of the motives, you're right I think that international appetite for what Israel is doing is weakening. It seems Israel's cornerstone support is the US. If that goes I wonder if Israel will look for a ceasefire.

Support in the US for Israel or what it is doing will not go. There are very rich and powerful Jews across America and in Washington who lobby and influence what the US president of the day does regarding Israel. Since 1948 the USA has given Israel $150 Billion in financial and military aid.

[greenmark]

Israel needs to be careful ... their cries of "foul" because 1,400 of their civilians were killed gets weaker and weaker when they kill 9,000+ civilians! Yes, of course they have the right to defend themselves but do they need to defend themselves from Palestinian civilians?

In a similar way could Hamas claim they have the right to defend themselves from Israeli oppression?

We will see. But it seems Israel is intent on dismantling the Hamas infrastructure and haven't they also said Gaza will remain under Israeli control from here on?
This is invasion and occupation. And simply because Hamas lost their minds and made an existential error.
Whatever the truth of the motives, you're right I think that international appetite for what Israel is doing is weakening. It seems Israel's cornerstone support is the US. If that goes I wonder if Israel will look for a ceasefire.

Support in the US for Israel or what it is doing will not go. There are very rich and powerful Jews across America and in Washington who lobby and influence what the US president of the day does regarding Israel. Since 1948 the USA has given Israel $150 Billion in financial and military aid.

We shall see whether the US remains resolute. I don't know, but the longer pictures of carnage are spread across the media the harder it is for the US to not say "ok, enough".

But you're ex-military I think. How would you have felt as an active member of the military about what Israel are doing and what you were being asked to do? Is it proportionate? Or have they gone berserk? Or does being in the military mean you don't think about the rights or wrongs, you just follow orders?

[Derek27]

An Israeli spokesman said yesterday, article 1 of the Geneva Convention makes hospitals a legitimate if the enemy is using it for shelter and they've provided sufficient warning that it will be targeted.

[Archery1969]

We will see. But it seems Israel is intent on dismantling the Hamas infrastructure and haven't they also said Gaza will remain under Israeli control from here on?
This is invasion and occupation. And simply because Hamas lost their minds and made an existential error.
Whatever the truth of the motives, you're right I think that international appetite for what Israel is doing is weakening. It seems Israel's cornerstone support is the US. If that goes I wonder if Israel will look for a ceasefire.

Support in the US for Israel or what it is doing will not go. There are very rich and powerful Jews across America and in Washington who lobby and influence what the US president of the day does regarding Israel. Since 1948 the USA has given Israel $150 Billion in financial and military aid.

We shall see whether the US remains resolute. I don't know, but the longer pictures of carnage are spread across the media the harder it is for the US to not say "ok, enough".

But you're ex-military I think. How would you have felt as an active member of the military about what Israel are doing and what you were being asked to do? Is it proportionate? Or have they gone berserk? Or does being in the military mean you don't think about the rights or wrongs, you just follow orders?

Its a difficult one for Jewish people to deal with. Remember what happened to them during WW2. After that, they and the world said never again.

In a well disciplined army, a soldier follows orders. You would always hope that those giving orders know what their doing and follow international laws. But that is not always the case plus you can get soldiers taking the law into their own hands when others are not looking. War is not easy, mistakes get made by accident and some times on purpose. The British executed prisoners and/or unarmed soldiers/combatants during the Boer War, WW1, WW2, The Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afganistan and Gibraltar (Death On the Rock).

When it comes to citizens, especially children, then you need to be extra careful but again things will always go wrong.

Personally, I think Israel has/is overstepping the mark. But they and the USA are not signed up members to the Rome Statute which created the International Criminal Court. So, there is very little anyone can do about it if they are breaking international rules/laws.

Basically, Israel, is an occupying force killing children. There is no excuse for that in a civilised society or under international law, whatever the provocation or circumstances.

But Israel must realise that they are creating tomorrow's new/next terrorists who will almost certainly take revenge at somepoint in the future.

Israel says it wants to destroy Hamas once and for all. Thats rather a stupid thing to say as many of the senior leaders are in Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. But maybe they plan on taking them out in those countries too. If they did then that might just unite the Arab world against Israel and its allies.

When it comes to Nuclear Weapons, Israel never answers the question. They may have them or may not. Nobody seems to know but I imagine they do, given to them by the USA with strict rules on there use. Although, if under serious attack from all fronts then they would probably ignore the USA and use them.

[greenmark]

Support in the US for Israel or what it is doing will not go. There are very rich and powerful Jews across America and in Washington who lobby and influence what the US president of the day does regarding Israel. Since 1948 the USA has given Israel $150 Billion in financial and military aid.

We shall see whether the US remains resolute. I don't know, but the longer pictures of carnage are spread across the media the harder it is for the US to not say "ok, enough".

But you're ex-military I think. How would you have felt as an active member of the military about what Israel are doing and what you were being asked to do? Is it proportionate? Or have they gone berserk? Or does being in the military mean you don't think about the rights or wrongs, you just follow orders?

Its a difficult one for Jewish people to deal with. Remember what happened to them during WW2. After that, they and the world said never again.

In a well disciplined army, a soldier follows orders. You would always hope that those giving orders know what their doing and follow international laws. But that is not always the case plus you can get soldiers taking the law into their own hands when others are not looking. War is not easy, mistakes get made by accident and some times on purpose. The British executed prisoners and/or unarmed soldiers/combatants during the Boer War, WW1, WW2, The Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afganistan and Gibraltar (Death On the Rock).

When it comes to citizens, especially children, then you need to be extra careful but again things will always go wrong.

Personally, I think Israel has/is overstepping the mark. But they and the USA are not signed up members to the Rome Statute which created the International Criminal Court. So, there is very little anyone can do about it if they are breaking international rules/laws.

Basically, Israel, is an occupying force killing children. There is no excuse for that in a civilised society or under international law, whatever the provocation or circumstances.

But Israel must realise that they are creating tomorrow's new/next terrorists who will almost certainly take revenge at somepoint in the future.

Israel says it wants to destroy Hamas once and for all. Thats rather a stupid thing to say as many of the senior leaders are in Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. But maybe they plan on taking them out in those countries too. If they did then that might just unite the Arab world against Israel and its allies.

When it comes to Nuclear Weapons, Israel never answers the question. They may have them or may not. Nobody seems to know but I imagine they do, given to them by the USA with strict rules on there use. Although, if under serious attack from all fronts then they would probably ignore the USA and use them.

A lot to absorb there. Thanks.
But my main question is how (as an ex-combatant) would you feel doing what the IDF is doing. Would you say "this is my job/role". Or do you think you would want to say this isn't right? I appreciate that is possibly an unfair question, but when confronted by poilticians with an agenda someone like you has a unique perspective.

[Archery1969]

We shall see whether the US remains resolute. I don't know, but the longer pictures of carnage are spread across the media the harder it is for the US to not say "ok, enough".

But you're ex-military I think. How would you have felt as an active member of the military about what Israel are doing and what you were being asked to do? Is it proportionate? Or have they gone berserk? Or does being in the military mean you don't think about the rights or wrongs, you just follow orders?

Its a difficult one for Jewish people to deal with. Remember what happened to them during WW2. After that, they and the world said never again.

In a well disciplined army, a soldier follows orders. You would always hope that those giving orders know what their doing and follow international laws. But that is not always the case plus you can get soldiers taking the law into their own hands when others are not looking. War is not easy, mistakes get made by accident and some times on purpose. The British executed prisoners and/or unarmed soldiers/combatants during the Boer War, WW1, WW2, The Falklands, Northern Ireland, Iraq, Afganistan and Gibraltar (Death On the Rock).

When it comes to citizens, especially children, then you need to be extra careful but again things will always go wrong.

Personally, I think Israel has/is overstepping the mark. But they and the USA are not signed up members to the Rome Statute which created the International Criminal Court. So, there is very little anyone can do about it if they are breaking international rules/laws.

Basically, Israel, is an occupying force killing children. There is no excuse for that in a civilised society or under international law, whatever the provocation or circumstances.

But Israel must realise that they are creating tomorrow's new/next terrorists who will almost certainly take revenge at somepoint in the future.

Israel says it wants to destroy Hamas once and for all. Thats rather a stupid thing to say as many of the senior leaders are in Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Jordan. But maybe they plan on taking them out in those countries too. If they did then that might just unite the Arab world against Israel and its allies.

When it comes to Nuclear Weapons, Israel never answers the question. They may have them or may not. Nobody seems to know but I imagine they do, given to them by the USA with strict rules on there use. Although, if under serious attack from all fronts then they would probably ignore the USA and use them.

A lot to absorb there. Thanks.
But my main question is how (as an ex-combatant) would you feel doing what the IDF is doing. Would you say "this is my job/role". Or do you think you would want to say this isn't right? I appreciate that is possibly an unfair question, but when confronted by poilticians with an agenda someone like you has a unique perspective.

Personally, I would say this isn't right.

Just because Hamas may be hiding in a hospital does not give you the right to bomb it knowing there are children in there or those that cant be moved for health reasons. Not to mention the doctors and nurses you will also kill.

Hamas will be mainly hiding in tunnels, along with hostages. Israel has admitted blowing these tunnels up and more than likely killing their own citizens. That mentality reminds me of something which happend in Russia some years back when terrorists took over a cinema, the Russian authorities gased everyone, made a so called mistake with the dosage and instead of puting people to sleep for a few hours ended up killing everyone. A mistake they said. Yeah, like I believe that one!!!

Think for one second, can you imagine terrorists taking over a school or hospital in the UK and the government decides to bomb it using the RAF ? I'm fairly confident that no UK pilot would do that if ordered too etc. Plus the public would go nuts!!!

But Israel says its at war, gloves are off and basically they will do whatever they want. There are some comparisons here with Hitler and Putin. Problem is the west is siding with Israel, who, dont forget, is rather friendly with Russia/Putin. Funny old world isn't it!!!!

[Tuco]

...a couple of years ago there was an interesting BBC4 Storyville documentary thriller by Alex Gibney called:

"Zero Days: Nuclear Cyber Sabotage" and was broadcast on BBC4 on Mon 16 Jan 2017 @ 21:00, Tue 17 Jan 2017 @ 02:30 and Sat 6 Nov 2021 @ 22:55

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bcc18

"Documentary thriller about warfare in a world without rules - the world of cyberwar. It tells the story of Stuxnet, self-replicating computer malware, known as a 'worm' for its ability to burrow from computer to computer on its own. In a covert operation, the American and Israeli intelligence agencies allegedly unleashed Stuxnet to destroy a key part of an Iranian nuclear facility. Ultimately the 'worm' spread beyond its intended target."

"Zero Days is the most comprehensive account to date of how a clandestine mission opened forever the Pandora's box of cyberwarfare. A cautionary tale of technology, politics, unintended consequences, morality, and the dangers of secrecy."

"Sorry, this episode is not currently available" it sadly/conveniently now says on the BBC website. I wonder what pressure caused that?

It's still available on YT and well worth a watch as it's highly relevant to this thread and the repercussions of the Israel-Gaza/Middle East war.

Trailer on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8lj45IL5J4 (2.07)

Full Film on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqk_VUMzY_M (1:53.46)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11388018

[greenmark]

...a couple of years ago there was an interesting BBC4 Storyville documentary thriller by Alex Gibney called:

"Zero Days: Nuclear Cyber Sabotage" and was broadcast on BBC4 on Mon 16 Jan 2017 @ 21:00, Tue 17 Jan 2017 @ 02:30 and Sat 6 Nov 2021 @ 22:55

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08bcc18

"Documentary thriller about warfare in a world without rules - the world of cyberwar. It tells the story of Stuxnet, self-replicating computer malware, known as a 'worm' for its ability to burrow from computer to computer on its own. In a covert operation, the American and Israeli intelligence agencies allegedly unleashed Stuxnet to destroy a key part of an Iranian nuclear facility. Ultimately the 'worm' spread beyond its intended target."

"Zero Days is the most comprehensive account to date of how a clandestine mission opened forever the Pandora's box of cyberwarfare. A cautionary tale of technology, politics, unintended consequences, morality, and the dangers of secrecy."

"Sorry, this episode is not currently available" it sadly/conveniently now says on the BBC website. I wonder what pressure caused that?

It's still available on YT and well worth a watch as it's highly relevant to this thread and the repercussions of the Israel-Gaza/Middle East war.

Trailer on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8lj45IL5J4 (2.07)

Full Film on YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqk_VUMzY_M (1:53.46)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11388018

WTF are you drivelling on about. That stuff is years or decades old.

[Tuco]

Is this thread the place for a bunfight? I think Firlandsfarm and Derek27 should create their own thread were they knock chunks off each other.
Puts me in mind of Monty Python's Life of Brian.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6VTci1Bunk

WTF are you drivelling on about. That stuff is decades old.

*where

[Derek27]

Biden ordered two F16s into Syria to destroy a facility in a self-defence attack!