Are you referring to documents uploaded to this forum? Or to Betfair?The Strulach wrote:Does anyone know where the uploaded docs go?
Anything uploaded to the forum remains attached to the post placed at that time.
Account suspended for premium charge avoidance
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
Thanks for the response Admin,
I was being an idiot. I was uploading a PDF file whihc is banned. here is the Gambling commissioners proposed conclusion.
I was being an idiot. I was uploading a PDF file whihc is banned. here is the Gambling commissioners proposed conclusion.
Today I received mail from [email protected] and it said
I am writing to inform you that your account, "xxxxx", has been suspended under investigation of Premium Charge avoidance.
Your account will remain suspended for a period of at least 8-10 working days whilst we complete this investigation. You will be contacted again once the investigation is complete.
if anyone can tell me whether I would still be able to bet on Betfair.
I am writing to inform you that your account, "xxxxx", has been suspended under investigation of Premium Charge avoidance.
Your account will remain suspended for a period of at least 8-10 working days whilst we complete this investigation. You will be contacted again once the investigation is complete.
if anyone can tell me whether I would still be able to bet on Betfair.
This is what I am scared of every day, that Betfair will empty my account and close it. The difference with some "not so good" bookmakers and Betfair is that bad bookmakers will delay til infinity withdrawals, but Betfair makes it one step further, Betfair even takes money from your account without any explanations why just that sum, referring to premium charge avoidance. I already have two usernames in my "entity" (Betfair using this word) that I don't know who they are, and the risk is very big that Betfair will put me together with more people because I am using a betting strategy that I think many other people are using, nothing so special about it, and if someone using that same strategy is becoming successful, then the end of my Betfair story that started almost from the beginning.
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spreadbetting
- Posts: 3140
- Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm
kemabet you should do a subject access request asking for details of those other usernames. Or at the very least suggest Betfair recover any PC due through your other accounts 
The problem with them including other accounts is no doubt you'd be paying their PC charges as Betfair only take PC from one account whatever they consider the main account to be.
The problem with them including other accounts is no doubt you'd be paying their PC charges as Betfair only take PC from one account whatever they consider the main account to be.
I should also say that there are usernames in my "entity" that I know who they are, my relatives and friends and we were making teamwork many years, helping each other, dividing the markets between us etc and I wonder in what way that was or is wrong? Because I had been so long doing Betfair my friends came into 60% before they should have and it is so bad and unfair. Now with the Premium charges everything is very complicated for us and concerning the unknown usernames it seems that they are quite inactive or making minus because sometimes it seems that the PC is not 60%, rather "only" 50% penalties!
It is a big problem if Betfair has hired people from outside to catch the PC-avoiders, because of course these people have a pressure to show results to their boss and I think they have and will shoot many innocent persons because of this. Also, these "killers" are seeing that some Betfair customers are successful, getting jealous and will shoot these customers maybe only because of this jealousity. The email I got when Betfair took a huge sum from my account, as I see without any reason, was actually quite childish, somekind of a from-an-upper-level-laughing-mentality over it. I hit you and I am happy about it.
It is a big problem if Betfair has hired people from outside to catch the PC-avoiders, because of course these people have a pressure to show results to their boss and I think they have and will shoot many innocent persons because of this. Also, these "killers" are seeing that some Betfair customers are successful, getting jealous and will shoot these customers maybe only because of this jealousity. The email I got when Betfair took a huge sum from my account, as I see without any reason, was actually quite childish, somekind of a from-an-upper-level-laughing-mentality over it. I hit you and I am happy about it.
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
I've taken out the phone number, names and contact details. I am posting the letter for the sole purpose of giving people information.
Tel: xx
Fax: xx
Email: xx
Your ref:
Our ref: 405_2004E
Date: 9 May 2012
My Address
Dear Mr MacRobert
RE: Complaint Resolution Procedure- Proposed Determination
Thank you for bringing your issue with Betfair to our attention.
In summary; Isee that Betfair concluded that your account was part of a single betting strategy with 5 other accounts to avoid Premium Charges, and therefore its reason for taking £3,141 from your account as Premium Charge for the activity across all these 6
Betfair accounts. You deny that your Betfair account was used as part of a single betting strategy. You are aggrieved by Betfair's decision to now consider your account for the Premium Charge, including the charge incurred by any of the other 5 accounts or the combined activity across all 6 accounts. You are aggrieved that Betfair has apparently acted as 'judge and jury' on the case, and that they have not allowed you recourse to appeal. You are further aggrieved that they are not giving you any information concerning their investigation.
We held a meeting with Betfair senior management, including a senior manager from their Pricing Team to discuss your issue. They explained to us the methodology they used to establish Premium Charge avoidance. It is apparent that they conducted a thorough investigation and then made a carefully considered decision based on evidence, it is not a decision that they took lightly. I can advise you that only a small number of customers have sought to challenge Betfair's methodology.
Betfair management explained to me that the 6 Betfair accounts were associated by electronic footprint and betting patterns, as well as showing a pattern in the dates and times the accounts were used. Betfair showed us the information and material that they have to conclude that your Betfair account was used in parallel with the other Betfair accounts. We examined this information and material carefully and in detail, and sought further clarifications and explanations from Betfair when and where necessary.
Ihave considered your explanation that you and Mr McBride are lifelong friends who occasionally use each other's devices to access Betfair online when in Aberfeldy or Glasgow,
however, I am afraid that the information and material that Betfair has shows a more deliberate and complex association than this.
Under these circumstances it appears to me that the 6 Betfair accounts, including yours, were used in a way that permits Betfair to apply the Premium Charges as they have done.
It is not in Betfair's interest for details of their back office processes and methods to identify Premium Charge avoidance to be in the public domain, therefore we are unable to disclose further details of their investigation into your case.
To conclude; it appears to us that Betfair has substantial evidence to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that your account was part of a group of Betfair accounts employing a strategy to avoid Premium Charges. We believe that Betfair have acted in accordance with their Terms and Conditions. Iam afraid, therefore, that Icannot agree with your claims that Betfair have made a mistake.
This is my Proposed Determination. I am also forwarding Betfair a copy. I am now inviting you and Betfair to comment on this Proposed Determination..It is also. the opportunity for both parties to bring to my attention any facts or issues I may have inadvertently omitted or not considered in my assessment, analysis and conclusion. Please be advised that both parties should submit any representations by the 29 May 2012. I will consider any representations thereafter before issuing my Final Decision on the matter.
Yours sincerely
xx
Tel: xx
Fax: xx
Email: xx
Your ref:
Our ref: 405_2004E
Date: 9 May 2012
My Address
Dear Mr MacRobert
RE: Complaint Resolution Procedure- Proposed Determination
Thank you for bringing your issue with Betfair to our attention.
In summary; Isee that Betfair concluded that your account was part of a single betting strategy with 5 other accounts to avoid Premium Charges, and therefore its reason for taking £3,141 from your account as Premium Charge for the activity across all these 6
Betfair accounts. You deny that your Betfair account was used as part of a single betting strategy. You are aggrieved by Betfair's decision to now consider your account for the Premium Charge, including the charge incurred by any of the other 5 accounts or the combined activity across all 6 accounts. You are aggrieved that Betfair has apparently acted as 'judge and jury' on the case, and that they have not allowed you recourse to appeal. You are further aggrieved that they are not giving you any information concerning their investigation.
We held a meeting with Betfair senior management, including a senior manager from their Pricing Team to discuss your issue. They explained to us the methodology they used to establish Premium Charge avoidance. It is apparent that they conducted a thorough investigation and then made a carefully considered decision based on evidence, it is not a decision that they took lightly. I can advise you that only a small number of customers have sought to challenge Betfair's methodology.
Betfair management explained to me that the 6 Betfair accounts were associated by electronic footprint and betting patterns, as well as showing a pattern in the dates and times the accounts were used. Betfair showed us the information and material that they have to conclude that your Betfair account was used in parallel with the other Betfair accounts. We examined this information and material carefully and in detail, and sought further clarifications and explanations from Betfair when and where necessary.
Ihave considered your explanation that you and Mr McBride are lifelong friends who occasionally use each other's devices to access Betfair online when in Aberfeldy or Glasgow,
however, I am afraid that the information and material that Betfair has shows a more deliberate and complex association than this.
Under these circumstances it appears to me that the 6 Betfair accounts, including yours, were used in a way that permits Betfair to apply the Premium Charges as they have done.
It is not in Betfair's interest for details of their back office processes and methods to identify Premium Charge avoidance to be in the public domain, therefore we are unable to disclose further details of their investigation into your case.
To conclude; it appears to us that Betfair has substantial evidence to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt that your account was part of a group of Betfair accounts employing a strategy to avoid Premium Charges. We believe that Betfair have acted in accordance with their Terms and Conditions. Iam afraid, therefore, that Icannot agree with your claims that Betfair have made a mistake.
This is my Proposed Determination. I am also forwarding Betfair a copy. I am now inviting you and Betfair to comment on this Proposed Determination..It is also. the opportunity for both parties to bring to my attention any facts or issues I may have inadvertently omitted or not considered in my assessment, analysis and conclusion. Please be advised that both parties should submit any representations by the 29 May 2012. I will consider any representations thereafter before issuing my Final Decision on the matter.
Yours sincerely
xx
Interesting. To clarify, was that letter from the Gibraltar gambling authority?
I liked this line: 'I can advise you that only a small number of customers have sought to challenge Betfair's methodology'. How on earth is anyone supposed to challenge a process that is shrouded in secrecy?!?
Jeff
I liked this line: 'I can advise you that only a small number of customers have sought to challenge Betfair's methodology'. How on earth is anyone supposed to challenge a process that is shrouded in secrecy?!?
Jeff
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
yes, That's the proposed determination from the gambling regulator. That was the persons title on the letter
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enzabella2009
- Posts: 747
- Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:58 pm
I think that Betfair and gambling regulators have already agreement on what to write when they get complaints. It 's a farcical. It seems too obvious. Should this happen to me, after I have properly followed all procedures, I would not hesitate to bring Betfair in court. If I know I'm not lying about this and I have no skeletons in the closet, I probably win the case before going in court. In that case they are obliged to show what they have in hand in order to sustain their case.
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
My intentions are to ask the commissioner for more time to prepare 'further submissions'. It will be knocked back but it will be on record that I have stated I am dissatisfied with the outcome of the complaints process, given my reasons for that and explained I have not had any information with which to make my case or argue against Betfairs investigation. I have put in another SAR(my first one sent a month and more ago was not received by Betfair despite being signed for by someone). I will ask for SARs from the other accounts involved. That might be enough but I can then have a think about involving a random account or two, volunteers maybe once I have managed to determine something about Betfairs methodology.
Betfair seem to be more forthcoming now. They have given me a workers name to send my SAR to (a guy who works on the helpdesk) and an email address to enquire about the investigation [email protected] and this email address is picked up by the helpdesk(i.e it is the helpdesk!). So they have been giving themselves the look of a company who are accommodating folk in my situation. Previously I would contact the helpdesk (by email, recorded letter etc and they would pass the information on to the people reponsible) We'll see what replies come back to me.
that's the idea anyway
Betfair seem to be more forthcoming now. They have given me a workers name to send my SAR to (a guy who works on the helpdesk) and an email address to enquire about the investigation [email protected] and this email address is picked up by the helpdesk(i.e it is the helpdesk!). So they have been giving themselves the look of a company who are accommodating folk in my situation. Previously I would contact the helpdesk (by email, recorded letter etc and they would pass the information on to the people reponsible) We'll see what replies come back to me.
that's the idea anyway
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
I'm not getting carried away but I will persevere with it.
If anyone wants a fuller explanation of the other accounts or why I think my account got caught up in it feel free to ask. I'm happy to answer
If anyone wants a fuller explanation of the other accounts or why I think my account got caught up in it feel free to ask. I'm happy to answer
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The Strulach
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:56 pm
Kemabet, apologies for jumping in on you earlier.
Have you made a complaint?
They might be able to do what they like? I don't know how widespread this is though or how they link accounts using bots. Simple connections between people and accounts can be made and then they can take their time and build a case based on similarities between accounts maybe? It might be more scientific than that who knows? I didn't use software I just traded btw.
In view of your own situation what do you make of the point made by the gambling regulator that very few people have sought to challenge 'Betfairs methodology'(I take this to mean make a complaint to the gambling regulator)?
Have you made a complaint?
They might be able to do what they like? I don't know how widespread this is though or how they link accounts using bots. Simple connections between people and accounts can be made and then they can take their time and build a case based on similarities between accounts maybe? It might be more scientific than that who knows? I didn't use software I just traded btw.
In view of your own situation what do you make of the point made by the gambling regulator that very few people have sought to challenge 'Betfairs methodology'(I take this to mean make a complaint to the gambling regulator)?
Maybe I am too cautious and afraid of Betfair, but my only income is from Betfair (and from Betdaq). As I said, every day I am afraid that Betfair will close my account because I cannot believe that my betting is so different than many others, maybe I can "twist and time" better than others. I really cannot afford to make a fight with Betfair. I think I have no chance.
Another thing, if Betfair, as someone pointed out, has hired people from outside to digitally fingerprint or footprint winning customers I think it is totally wrong from Betfair. I really don't like if Betfair is allowing someone to analyze my bets. By making regular screenshots of a market this person can then see what kind of bets I have done and in what situation and can find out my winning betting strategy. Will this person keep this information only as to recognize PC-avoidance or will he use this for something else? I think the temptation to use this information for his own interests is quite high, or?
Still, one more thing. I actually have many winning betting strategies. How can Betfair keep control of them all? If they put together two persons they are just guessing, after all, they cannot prove anything, this is why they are so secret about their "evidence". When they put me together with a username I don't know I got an email where the Betfair-person wrote "were suspended under investigation of Premium Charge avoidance due to the inconsistent nature of betting activity conducted across the accounts." I am not an English person. I have no idea what this means. No proof, no reason, not motivating why, only bla bla bla in some high version of English and then they took a five digit sum from my account.
Another thing, if Betfair, as someone pointed out, has hired people from outside to digitally fingerprint or footprint winning customers I think it is totally wrong from Betfair. I really don't like if Betfair is allowing someone to analyze my bets. By making regular screenshots of a market this person can then see what kind of bets I have done and in what situation and can find out my winning betting strategy. Will this person keep this information only as to recognize PC-avoidance or will he use this for something else? I think the temptation to use this information for his own interests is quite high, or?
Still, one more thing. I actually have many winning betting strategies. How can Betfair keep control of them all? If they put together two persons they are just guessing, after all, they cannot prove anything, this is why they are so secret about their "evidence". When they put me together with a username I don't know I got an email where the Betfair-person wrote "were suspended under investigation of Premium Charge avoidance due to the inconsistent nature of betting activity conducted across the accounts." I am not an English person. I have no idea what this means. No proof, no reason, not motivating why, only bla bla bla in some high version of English and then they took a five digit sum from my account.
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aleksandar
- Posts: 26
- Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2009 10:50 pm
Hi guys,
Does anyone know what happens with allowed number of data requests per second if they link several accounts for premium charge avoidance? If I my account is linked with N more accounts will I still be able to have 20 data request per second without any charge?
Does anyone know what happens with allowed number of data requests per second if they link several accounts for premium charge avoidance? If I my account is linked with N more accounts will I still be able to have 20 data request per second without any charge?