Students

[Iron]

Hi Freddy

I agree.

I would add that, if the investment is yours rather than the state's, you're more likely to work your balls off to make sure it's not money down the swanny...

The realities of the current graduate labour market are harsh. My housemate's son recently graduated with a 2:1 from Cambridge, and he's now working in his local M&S. Young people need to think long and hard about their educational/career choices, and tuition fees are a good way of focusing their minds...

Jeff

in my world it would be like this.
A degree should be a investment in yourself, just like an investment in a buisness.

if i were a bank and a grade A student came to me and said they wanted to go to uni to study architecture then i would consider it a good investment as they have a good chance of paying it back in future.

the same could not be said for some of the micky mouse degree courses you see, they just do not improve career prospects enough to invest in and should be funded by the individual. in some cases they are no more that a hobby / time wasting.

If students had to pay their loans back regardless of their future successes then they would be alot more sensable with their choices.

They key question should be do i need a degree to do what i want to in life and will the investment make me a return in future. If not then get a job.

[rogerpalmtree]

Ferru, I think we do actually agree on more things than you might think. As I said I was really just posting to try and bring another opinion in about students in general, and I'm not even sure where I stand on some tuition fees although I do think 9k a year is too high.

A few responses though. You will notice I specifically said educated people were less like to commit VIOLENT crimes. I don't have any stats on me but I'm pretty certain that this is a fact. It would seem very strange if it wasn't. Also you seem to be agreeing with me by saying "It may be that educated people are intelligent enough either not to get caught or not to commit crime." So education does make you less likely to commit crime?

Again I'm pretty sure that there are links between being educated and earnings, and not just because you have to be a certain type of person to want to go to uni in the first place. It's surely true that most of the better paid jobs require a degree. A graduate can, if needs be do a non-graduate job, but a non-graduate can't do a graduates job.

Regarding Doctors you make an interesting point. I don't have an issue with using foreign Dr's but I'm sure many do. But you would surely have to support at least having some Dr's trained in the UK. It seems a little unfair on someone aspirring to be a doctor who is clever enough to do so that they aren't allowed to train up to do so. I'm really not intending to open up a debate on immigration by the way so please don't see this as my intention!!!!!! I note from your previous post however that you seem against people being educated in this country and then leaving but don't mind if they are educated abroad and then leave there own country.

As already said I agree that the higher education system isn't by any means perfect. You are correct that there aren't enough jobs for graduates but this isn't anything against students themselves. It's not someones fault if they go to uni with the hope of being one of the lucky ones who gets a good graduate job straight away and then fails to do so. It's a gamble and like all gambles you can't know at the start how it's going to turn out. But the problem is if you don't take part you won't win. Also some would argue that it isn't all about money and that education is a "good in itself." I won't take a stance on this however.

[Iron]

Hi Roger

Re: Violent crimes - What I'm saying is that I think that the people who go to university are less likely to commit crimes full stop. I have no reason to believe that university has a civilizing effect, and would-be thugs entering the first year have foresaken their violent ways by the time they've graduated!

Re: Earnings - Who says a non-graduate can't do a so-called graduate job? I'll bet you'll find top professionals in most areas who left school at 16 and worked their way through the ranks. Don't get intelligence and education confused.

Re: doctors from abroad - Rightly or wrongly, doctors from the EU can work in this country. So the 'if you have a heart attack, you'll need my services, so you should pay for my tuition' line from medical students frankly doesn't wash! Nor does the 'In 10 years' time, I'll be a top rate taxpayer'. Yes, you will, but so would the Greek doctor who would have been happy to do your job, who wasn't trained at the British taxpayer's expense...

Re: the economy - I appreciate it's not students' fault that there are few decent jobs out there. But nevertheless government decisions need to take account of the harsh economic realities...

Jeff

Ferru, I think we do actually agree on more things than you might think. As I said I was really just posting to try and bring another opinion in about students in general, and I'm not even sure where I stand on some tuition fees although I do think 9k a year is too high.

A few responses though. You will notice I specifically said educated people were less like to commit VIOLENT crimes. I don't have any stats on me but I'm pretty certain that this is a fact. It would seem very strange if it wasn't. Also you seem to be agreeing with me by saying "It may be that educated people are intelligent enough either not to get caught or not to commit crime." So education does make you less likely to commit crime?

Again I'm pretty sure that there are links between being educated and earnings, and not just because you have to be a certain type of person to want to go to uni in the first place. It's surely true that most of the better paid jobs require a degree. A graduate can, if needs be do a non-graduate job, but a non-graduate can't do a graduates job.

Regarding Doctors you make an interesting point. I don't have an issue with using foreign Dr's but I'm sure many do. But you would surely have to support at least having some Dr's trained in the UK. It seems a little unfair on someone aspirring to be a doctor who is clever enough to do so that they aren't allowed to train up to do so. I'm really not intending to open up a debate on immigration by the way so please don't see this as my intention!!!!!! I note from your previous post however that you seem against people being educated in this country and then leaving but don't mind if they are educated abroad and then leave there own country.

As already said I agree that the higher education system isn't by any means perfect. You are correct that there aren't enough jobs for graduates but this isn't anything against students themselves. It's not someones fault if they go to uni with the hope of being one of the lucky ones who gets a good graduate job straight away and then fails to do so. It's a gamble and like all gambles you can't know at the start how it's going to turn out. But the problem is if you don't take part you won't win. Also some would argue that it isn't all about money and that education is a "good in itself." I won't take a stance on this however.

[rogerpalmtree]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not so sure that amongst some people at least uni doesn't have a civilizing effect. I think if you put someone who has perhaps been in poverty and has been in an enviroment growing up where crime is the norm, and then put them into one where education and intelligence is rewarded, and where most of the people around you don't agree with crime this is surely going to have an effect. But I think we are both speaking annecdotally, (although I'm sure there are study's out there relating to this topic).

Of course you are correct that some people do start at the bottom and make there way up, sometimes to levels far higher than graduates in the same company, but I would have thought this is the exception rather than the rule. In a world where more and more people are getting degrees I'd expect this to become rarer in the future.

Regarding medical students as I said I don't really want to talk about the morality of imigration so I won't comment.

Again, I'm glad you agree that it isn't all the students fault, even if we disagree in some othr respects. I'll probably stop commenting on this thread now, because this could go on for days and we still wouldn't agree. I just wanted to try and give a slightly alternate perspective.

I was trying to find a clip by Russell Howard where he talks about young people to try and lighten the mood but I can't find it. This is a chill out area after all. It was something along the lines of "we use improving exam results as proof that children are getting stupider. What chance do they have." I almost forgot that this is the BA forum for a few hours but the next thing I'll comment on will prob be trading related. Anyway that's me done. You are right Jeff this forum tends to be a lot more civilized than most others. No-one has called someone a Nazi yet which is good!!!!

[Predicton]

Hi All,

Jeff's really started a hot topic here.

It'd be interesting to study the "demographics" of the posters eg North/South, background, education etc. to see if we could devise a "model trading strategy" for the changes in govt. policy based on voter pressure (pity there's no market).

For my part, I'm from a Yorkshire mining background, went to university on a grant, now hold a fairly senior position in civil engineering at a large organisation. Where would I stand in the argument?

cheers, P

[Photon]

I don’t believe that we, despite living in a fairly socialist (yes despite what you pretend otherwise) country, suddenly find student fees unbearable burden whilst can do nothing about millions of people living on unemployed benefit, long-term sickness, child tax credit, low income allowance etc. We’re OK to pump in billions of pound on tax year behalf for the benefit of risk-taking, greedy and wankers (I mean bankers) and we’re OK still for, despite bailing them out, bankers to receive close to 7bn in bonuses.

The UK is relatively economically despite its size and its mainly due to the fact the average citizen of this country receives fairly good education that is free and accessible to most. By stripping away higher education from ordinary folks then you will find some idiots like prince Charles who is very privelaged but spends still relatively high tax payers’s money on studying some wacky subjects while intelligent and lots of ability to contribute to real economic and general welfare of the country unable to do so because they have to worry about working and earning a living at the cost of overall competitive of the country.

I think we should try to reflect on the long-term impact of the tory cost-cutting rather than just getting on Cameron’s bandwagon.

I think we may end up paying an ultimate price by paying for unemployment benefit instead of paying relative fraction of that on education.

[Green Park]

I see the students were lobbying Prince Charles last night.

[mugsgame]

In Britain we are incredibly privileged. We take for granted many things that are not available in many other counties.

Running water and sanitation.
Plentiful supply of high quality food.
Heat and light.
Free housing if unable to work
Free education for our children
If you are out of work or disabled you get money given to you.
Freedom of speech
Free press
etc etc

With these freedoms come responsibility. Whatever your politics or whatever you think about higher tuition fees or welfare reforms, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you like because you don't agree.

What happened over the past decade or so is the Government made a hash of things. The democratic process kicked in and they lost power. The present Government which was elected by the British public are doing what we put them in power to do. If they don't do a good job then we can replace them. That is how it works.

Britain today is like this....
I want
I deserve
I need
Who's fault is it?
Who can I blame?
It's not fair !!!

FFS
If those scenes last night had happened in China then they would have sent in Tanks again.

You can't blame the students for their appalling behaviour. It's the way our generation has bought them up. National Service anyone?

[to75ne]

What happened over the past decade or so is the Government made a hash of things. The democratic process kicked in and they lost power. The present Government which was elected by the British public are doing what we put them in power to do. If they don't do a good job then we can replace them. That is how it works.



i think this is the crux of the matter.

the british public did not vote this government into power.

the british public rejected labour and conservative governments. the liberals were never in the running.

we have a coalition that the public did not vote for, its a result of horse trading.

this coalition as no mandate that as been accepted/voted for by the public.

i expect more aggro not only from students, but others as well, maybe not in the form of riots etc, but aggro none the less.

[Iron]

Britain today is like this....
I want
I deserve
I need
Who's fault is it?
Who can I blame?
It's not fair !!!

Indeed.

I think people are in for a rude awakening when they discover that the credit-funded gravy train is grinding to a halt!

And I think the students who say basically 'Paying for my tuition fees benefits Britain' are lying either to themselves or to other people. How is the taxpayer ever going to get a good return on paying for someone to do a media studies course at some former poly?!?

That said, I think it's good that Britain seems to have moved away from the mentality that says basically 'Don't complain. Just accept your lot in life and make the most of it'. I'm pleased that, as a nation, we're less worried about complaining in a restaurant because our soup's cold.

You can't blame the students for their appalling behaviour. It's the way our generation has bought them up. National Service anyone?

I think there is a problem with a lack of discipline in society. I'm not sure National Service is affordable, but I'd welcome a return to corporal punishment in schools. And a return to 70s style policing would be nice - it'd be great if the police were seen by criminals as more than a minor inconvenience...

Jeff

[freddy]

Students still have a amazing deal here, but some it seems are to thick to realise it. .

everyone can still go to uni, and then they only have to pay it back when they have a good enough job. Carn't say fairer than that.

i mean who in the real world would refuse a loan like this, there is no risk, if i had my way they would be a risk and they would be paying it back regardless,
that would soon stop all the time wasting pointless degrees that don't even further you career prospects anyway and make people think abit harder about there choices.

[Iron]

Students still have a amazing deal here, but some it seems are to thick to realise it. .

Absolutely! It's the 'glass half empty' mentality!

If they think the government is giving them a bad deal, they should try persuading a bank manager to lend thousands of pounds, to be repaid only if/when they're earning over 21K!

I imagine even someone with 5 A's at A-Level who was going to Oxford to study economics would be politely told to take a running jump!

everyone can still go to uni, and then they only have to pay it back when they have a good enough job. Carn't say fairer than that.

I bet America's young people can't believe that our students were protesting about an arrangement that they would give their right arms for!

if i had my way they would be a risk and they would be paying it back regardless,
that would soon stop all the time wasting pointless degrees.

IMHO, there isn't great demand for people will fantastic thinking skills but no trade. In fact, given a choice between hiring a school-leaver or a graduate for a low-level admin position, I might choose the latter. They are less likely to try to reinvent the wheel, their colleagues are less likely to feel threatened by them, and they are less likely to get bored and frustrated by work they feel is beneath their intellect.

I therefore think that education should be vocational - not only will it broaden the intellect, but it will also provide skills that can be used in the real world.

Jeff

[andyfuller]

We won't know the success or failure of this new policy for many many years.

There are many other ways of cutting back on the pointless degrees that do not require the introduction of very high fees.

The fees that are going to be paid on many courses are there to cover the cut in government funding and not add to it some of the cuts being as high as 80% and this is not necessarily on your mickey mouse degrees.

The reason why the current system can not remain in place is because of the generation that has caused the 'credit crunch' yet the future generations are going to be the ones who ultimately pay the majority of that bill - not the ones who caused bear that in mind. As I put forward earlier, how about a 'graduate tax' for all those who got the free education and have done very well from it. Why shouldn't they be asked to pay a bit more.

Also a lot of the protesting is also about the Lib Dems and their underhanded way of getting votes in largely student populated areas.

Should we get rid of the NHS and move health care more like America?

[Iron]

I'm not sure I'd go that far, but there is something to be said for not making everything completely free to everyone...

Responsibility is the cornerstone of civilisation. I think it's time the frontiers of the state were rolled back, and people were encouraged to take greater responsibility. The state should be there purely as a safety net IMHO.

In the words of Mrs Thatcher, 'there's no such thing as society!'. What a shame that the emasculated Tory part of today is afraid to stand up for what it really believes...

Jeff

PS This article gives a nice metaphor for progressive politics: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ia ... d-in-beer/

Should we get rid of the NHS and move health care more like America?

[Dobbin]

Hi folks

Maybe it is time to introduce a long forgotten idea.


Maybe we could re-introduce common sense into our approach.

Could be a step too far though


Dobbin