Peter Webb - Interview

[andyfuller]

Putting the levy issue to one side, you can make a case for arguing that Betfair users are acting like bookmakers, and that they aren't.

And there in lies the problem. Both sides are arguing their corner and we will find out one way or the other soon enough which is deemed to be correct. If it is racing they will be looking for people to take to court as a test case and Peter has just put his hand up with this article and shouted pick me please.

Fingers crossed it is found in the favour of Betfair's stand point. An interesting point of note is that if I remember correctly the T&C's with Betdaq are different and they clearly state we are betting against Betdaq. I argued this exact topic with Mark Davies a while back and I think he said Betfair would just need to change their T&C's as at that time they were trying to argue both sides that they were the bookmaker when it suited and weren't when it didn't suit. They seemed to want to have their cake and eat it - lets hope the cake doesn't turn out past its sell by date!

[Iron]

You could argue that Betfair is merely a middleman.

Here's another similarity between Betfair users and bookmakers. A trade can only be profitable if either a backer or a layer takes a poor value bet from the trader. Similarly, a bookie can only make a profit long-term if people bet at lower odds than the true odds.

Re: being a bookmaker - I'm not saying it's as easy as falling off a log (if only!), but I bet there are people making a good living from it!

Jeff

Betfair itself is a bookmaker, as it is in the process of negociating and processing bets. I don't think you can say that collectively betfair users are making a book any more than you could say that punters with ordinary bookmakers are making a book, as in both cases their betting moves the odds. Bookmakers like ladbrokes only really match punters differing opinions against each other.

As for being a 'bookmaker' by using the bookmaking tab - if its that easy then go ahead and do it the margins on betfair are so huge you can hardly fail

[Dobbin]

Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 (c.2)

Legal Definition

55.

“bookmaker” means any person other than the Totalisator Board who—
(a) whether on his own account or as servant or agent to any other person, carries on, whether occasionally or regularly, the business of receiving or negotiating bets or conducting pool betting operations; or
(b) by way of business in any manner holds himself out, or permits himself to be held out, as a person who receives or negotiates bets or conducts such operations,
so, however, that a person shall not be deemed to be a bookmaker by reason only of the fact—
(i) that he carries on, or is employed in, sponsored pool betting business; or
(ii) that he operates, or is employed in operating, a totalisator;
and the expression “bookmaking” shall be construed accordingly;

[Dobbin]

An interesting read



http://www.hblb.org.uk/documents/75_HBL ... pril09.pdf

[Iron]

'A person who receives or negotiates bets'

Someone who lays bets is clearly receiving bets.

You also could argue that the exchange is a place where people negotiate bets, by offering prices and accepting or declining other people's prices.

But I suspect that the argument would be made in court that the law is out of date; that a law enacted in 1963 cannot possibly be applied to online gambling.

Jeff

Betting, Gaming and Lotteries Act 1963 (c.2)

Legal Definition

55.

“bookmaker” means any person other than the Totalisator Board who—
(a) whether on his own account or as servant or agent to any other person, carries on, whether occasionally or regularly, the business of receiving or negotiating bets or conducting pool betting operations; or
(b) by way of business in any manner holds himself out, or permits himself to be held out, as a person who receives or negotiates bets or conducts such operations,
so, however, that a person shall not be deemed to be a bookmaker by reason only of the fact—
(i) that he carries on, or is employed in, sponsored pool betting business; or
(ii) that he operates, or is employed in operating, a totalisator;
and the expression “bookmaking” shall be construed accordingly;

[Dobbin]

LOL

When is a bet not a bet then.

[Iron]

When it suits the Inland Revenue!

Jeff

LOL

When is a bet not a bet then.

[Dobbin]

LOL

[hgodden]

People who lay bets on betfair don't receive bets, betfair receive the bets and hold them. It is impossible for any betfair customer to actually receive a bet with another customer (or customers.)

Likewise, offering to bet at different prices on an exchange does not equate to 'negociation'.

People in racing, bookmakers, and maybe a few busybodies might want things to change for exchange users, mostly for their own purposes, as they have in the past when the previous government looked into this and decided there was no case to answer, but I haven't seen it stated anywhere whatsoever that the revenue were looking at this. All this is just idle speculation

[Iron]

People who lay bets on betfair don't receive bets, betfair receive the bets and hold them.

That depends on your interpretation!

You could argue that Betfair don't receive bets, but merely act facilitate a transaction.

The fact that, when I back a horse on Betfair, the money sits in Betfair's bank account until it's settled, rather than the bookie's bank account, is a mere technicality.

Likewise, offering to bet at different prices on an exchange does not equate to 'negociation'.

Again, it depends on your interpretation.

On the exchanges, people buy and sell where there is agreement on price. The tussles you get on the exchanges are fundamentally no different to the haggling that goes on when you buy a car.

Jeff

[andyfuller]

The fact that, when I back a horse on Betfair, the money sits in Betfair's bank account until it's settled, rather than the bookie's bank account, is a mere technicality.

Betfair hold the funds hence why they have to have a bookies licence, not sure what technicality you are arguing.

On the exchanges, people buy and sell where there is agreement on price.

But who are you agreeing with? It is Betfair it is only they that decide whether or not to accept your bet not you or me.

Anyway this has all been discussed elsewhere on the forum so I will stop my discussion of it here.

[Corker]

levy thread

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1999&p=16498&hilit=levy#p16498

[hgodden]

An independant solicitor with no interest either way looked into this and wrote in his levy consultation submission that if this ever went to court the judge would throw it out and tell people to stop wasting his time with all this. I couldn't agree more, these discussions are just hot air and I'm not going to waste any more time on them

[freddy]

Agree, there are that few people that make a living from Betfair it would be false economy to pursue them.

will not happen

[JollyGreen]

But there is no middle man when you bet on the Exchange. You are clearly betting against A N Other....I know this is true because I saw a milk drinking man in a TV advert and he took a good punch because with Betfair they cut out the middle man

Now where is that number for the ASA?