New Whip Rules

[Iron]

Lets say it doesn't cause pain at all, would you not think it would be excessive still to hit the horse constantly from the start of the race to the end?

No.

If you worked in a horse yard, and someone was patting a horse affectionately, you wouldn't say 'Oi! What do you think you're doing?'.

If the horse feels no pain, what's the difference between that and encouraging a horse by whipping it repeatedly?

OK, one is done out of love and the other out of a desire to win a race, but as long as the horse doesn't suffer, who cares?

Jeff

[superfrank]

As James Willoughby says, it is scientifically proven that the new whip does not cause horses pain when hit in the proper place (on the rump).

What a lot of nonsense.

Scientifically proven...by whom? How? They asked the horse if it hurt? Care to reference the research?

Does it hurt you when you are hit on the arse? Of course it does.

What is the point of hitting a horse at all then, if it doesn't have an effect?

Problem is, Hughes can't count to six as he only has 5 fingers.

according to Willoughby it has been measured by seeing if the hormone changes that are produced by pain occur when a horse is whipped... ask him; I just quoted what he said last night on RUK and I suspect he knows a bit more about it than either of us.

you can't compare the pain in humans to massive beasts like horses. when you see a horse in the winning enclosure been patted on the neck the connections give it quite a slap - it doesn't hurt them. if you slapped a girl like that she'd probably bruise and cry her eyes out. have you seen the rump of a horse?! it's huge!!

the horse (mostly) understands that it needs to try harder when hit on the arse - they can feel it obviously but it doesn't cause any meaningful pain - they don't understand the point of a horse race and don't know where the finish line is. if the same effect could be produced by hands and heels why on earth would a jockey upset his balance by using the whip?

Hannon '100% behind' Hughes's decision to quit
http://www.racingpost.com/news/horse-ra ... it/931709/

Hannon, who won last season's Flat trainers' championship, wrote on his website: "It is absolutely ridiculous, and we will be the laughing stock of America when we get to the Breeders' Cup and tell them that we could not bring our jockey because, though he weighs little more than 8st, he was suspended for striking half a ton of horseflesh six times with a padded foam whip.

[payuppal]

What's comical is the constant refrain of, No it doesn't hurt, but yes it's entirely necessary, it's the end of the sport as we know it if we lose it.

Heard it all before over the last many decades, thick jocks are always moaning about more restrictions.

As for Willoughby, he doesn't know much about about anything, and certainly not science.

What is the measurable response to the whip, and what is it indicative of? A love bite?

[Iron]

Maybe ATR should get one of the 'pro-whip' jockeys to allow himself to be whipped, to prove it doesn't hurt!

Whether or not it resolves the debate, it would make for great TV!

Jeff

[andyfuller]

Maybe ATR should get one of the 'pro-whip' jockeys to allow himself to be whipped, to prove it doesn't hurt!

Whether or not it resolves the debate, it would make for great TV!

Jeff

Can't remember which case it was the other day but the last strike that put the jockey over the limit hit the rider next to them. The ATR presenter confirmed it had as he had seen the jockey's arm and said he saw it had a huge red mark on it from where it had hit....

[superfrank]

but a jockey's arm isn't 3ft thick, made of solid muscle and with a fur coat on!

[Iron]

But could that not have been because the non-foam part of the whip made contact with the other jockey?

Jeff

Can't remember which case it was the other day but the last strike that put the jockey over the limit hit the rider next to them. The ATR presenter confirmed it had as he had seen the jockey's arm and said he saw it had a huge red mark on it from where it had hit....

[payuppal]

Clearly a horse must feel something in order for the whip to be useful.

If a horse doesn't feel pain from the whip, and respond to that, what does it feel?

[Euler]

Looks like a jockey strike could be on the way

[superfrank]

Looks like a jockey strike could be on the way

come on Euler, what's your view on the rules?!

[andyfuller]

but a jockey's arm isn't 3ft thick, made of solid muscle and with a fur coat on!

Correct but my point was towards Jeff and the often quoted line by jockeys that you could hit someone with it and they wouldn't feel any pain which isn't true. If you hit someone with the force with which it is used on a horse in a race then it will most likely hurt someone and most likely leave a mark on them.

The only times I have seen on TV someone hitting someone else with a whip it is like a love tap and not at all representative of how the whip is used in a race.

Yes if used correctly it won't leave a mark on a horse, but I still believe it feels pain when it is struck by a whip and why it 'flights' from the whip. The degree of pain it feels is open to discussion.

I believe the best solution imo at the moment is to revert to the old rules and disqualify anyone who breaks the rules and keep the previous ban durations for the jockies. If the disqualification was brought in I don't think you would see repeats of the grand national as the incentive to break the rules is removed.

[payuppal]

The PJA statement doesn't mention a strike.

All we need is extra tuition for Hughes so he can count past 5.

[Euler]

I don't know enough about horse welfare to comment on whether horses should be whipped on not to be honest.

But if jockeys were consulted and advised on the new rules then they should adhere to them. But the various authorities should have had a fall back position or period of transition, i.e. lower penalties while people work out the impact.

From a jockey perspective I can see why the whip is used. Before coming into racing I couldn't see the point of a jockey, but learning how they use the positioning of the horse and the whip to prompt them to sprint means I can't see how you can't race without it. But I'll also add, I'm not an equine expert, never ridden a horse and can't confidently tell people what is right on wrong as I don't think I am qualified enough to say that.

[Iron]

Andy -

What about the argument that this will play into the hands of race fixers?

When asked why he didn't urge his horse to victory in the final few furlongs, a jockey could simply say that he thought he'd used up all his whips.

Jeff

[Iron]

Horses are pack animals, and might therefore generally prefer to stay within the perceived safety of the pack rather than go out front. So maybe the whip is needed to encourage the horse to go against its instincts and try to move out in front.

I do wonder, though, whether the theory behind the whip is that the horse knows that the whipping will end when the race finishes, meaning it has an incentive to run as quickly as it can!

Jeff