It's sad really as it was so obvious the whole thing had a load of flaws in it, but once again, nobody was willing to listen. I think I may have to give up pointing out obvious flaws with situations as nobody listens, until its too late. You see it everyday unfortunately. People seem too ready to buy into stuff without asking enough obvious questions. This is another episode that will just sour peoples view of the gambling industry and yet it was so obvious!
Incidentally of all the guys I spoke to last week, loads have been approached by Centaur. It seems at some point or another Centaur spoke to lots of people about becoming involved in the business, including me!!!
Centaur sports funds
They pumped far too much money into advertising, premises etc. It is a shame as noone likes to see anyone lose money.
Some people aren't cut out for the business world. Adam Todd who sold RT onto Badger on the other hand was very good and could sell ice to the eskimos.
Some people aren't cut out for the business world. Adam Todd who sold RT onto Badger on the other hand was very good and could sell ice to the eskimos.
I met Keith, I met Andrew, I spent hours with them analysing the business and I have been offered to invest in their businesses and I passed;
their projections and numbers simply didn't add up, they run a 500k business like a 50M one, they thought they were a 50M business and they were not, they relayed on unsigned contracts by betfair and projections of the academy that were unrealistic even to a non trained eye, they overstretched and went belly up.
I have been contacted by the liquidators since my involvement was from a professional side, so I won't say much more but there is much more that will come out relatively soon, is not just a matter of losing money but misappropriating and distracting them for personal benefit from the type of questions I got form the liquidators.
their projections and numbers simply didn't add up, they run a 500k business like a 50M one, they thought they were a 50M business and they were not, they relayed on unsigned contracts by betfair and projections of the academy that were unrealistic even to a non trained eye, they overstretched and went belly up.
I have been contacted by the liquidators since my involvement was from a professional side, so I won't say much more but there is much more that will come out relatively soon, is not just a matter of losing money but misappropriating and distracting them for personal benefit from the type of questions I got form the liquidators.
EulerEuler wrote:It's sad really as it was so obvious the whole thing had a load of flaws in it, but once again, nobody was willing to listen. I think I may have to give up pointing out obvious flaws with situations as nobody listens, until its too late. You see it everyday unfortunately. People seem too ready to buy into stuff without asking enough obvious questions. This is another episode that will just sour peoples view of the gambling industry and yet it was so obvious!
Incidentally of all the guys I spoke to last week, loads have been approached by Centaur. It seems at some point or another Centaur spoke to lots of people about becoming involved in the business, including me!!!
Never a more true word spoken.It never ceases to amaze me just what people fall for.
74.5
http://www.sportismadeforbetting.com/20 ... andal.html
hope for investors in the Centaur scandal?
In a breaking story, it has been reported that directors of the failed sports investment fund Centaur have had their assets frozen in order to repay investors. It is believed that managing director Keith Sobey skipped town trying to avoid prosecution however he either naively thought Ireland was a safe enough place to hide or had a lingering feeling of guilt and sat waiting for that knock on the door.
Sobey, the name behind Centaur (read the original story here), is believed to own four houses, worth more in total than the missing £1.6m. His willingness to sell them to repay investors is likely to keep the matter out of the courts, and at least one other director, Andrew Cork, will apparently follow suit.
All this adds weight to anecdotal evidence that the collapse of the fund came down to mismanagement rather than fraudulent deeds. As costs grew (why would you set up a training academy in central London?), margins evaporated and keeping the business afloat went through money like an 'It' girl in a Christian Louboutin shop. However there are allegations that £400k in directors loans were paid from client funds late in 2011 which were splurged on cars and expensive holidays.
The business focused on three areas: securing investment money, training Betfair customers and investing (punting with) client funds.
Centaur was way too shiny and fake for serious investment. Sobey simply thought everything he did on a small scale could be multiplied linearly and they'd all be rich. A few signed up to it, but the Gibraltar-based firm who managed the funds for them need their heads examined for expecting the public to stump up £50m to trade with. Any punter will know that when you step up from £5 stakes to £50, things change. Put another zero or two on the end and you start having great difficulty getting set, unless you are A - a complete mug, B - betting only into the bigger markets (eg Cheltenham, EPL football etc) which are so tight there is little edge, or C - you falsely claim your bets were on at price X, when actually you got £5 at the best price and the rest went on much lower because bookies see you coming a mile off and slash the price because you're not wise enough to use beards/bowlers to get set properly. But, apparently this practice (C) is legal under advertising standards....
Centaur partnered with Betfair for a while to conduct training seminars for customers. Sobey's scale problem arose again - filling four seminars of 20 people in a week made him think they could do that every week of the year, and run several at the same time. It just doesn't work like that and Betfair weren't interested in hammering their database regularly to plug it, nor to subsidise expensive training for low-value customers which simply doesn't add up, unless it is part of an underlying company ethos which has long disappeared.
My spies tell me the training they offered was of high quality, however it all centred around one individual. Centaur made no effort to train/hire additional staff to roll the programme out, believing anyone could do it, and Betfair cannily had the partnership deal linked to the programme being led by one person. Once that person moved on, the get-out clause was activated.
Once the individual left and Betfair pulled the training, the new man, Neil Daldy came up with the idea to allow 40 people to come in and do a four-week "intensive" course and then trade for the company. So 40 people applied and came in every day for four weeks at their own expense, no payment with the promise of a job at the end of it. They were trained on BetTrader Evolution for 4 weeks on training mode and of course, with no pressure, they all made money. Then they let them loose on the REAL markets and you don't need me to tell you the result. One guy was abused so badly by Neil Daldy he went home one night, opened his own Betfair account and transferred via obscure markets the whole £15,000 bank allocated to him. Police were not called as this would have exposed the whole situation at Centaur and the guy was allowed to leave with no consequence. Daldy was eventually fired for trying to destroy Centaur and steal the clients and start up on his own.
Punting with client funds was always going to be the hardest part. Any half-serious punter will tell you how hard it is to stay on top of the game. If you expand the business or your turnover, you need extra resources, and these resources don't come cheap. Bookmakers these days have mostly switched from expensive, high quality staff to cheaper operators who mostly monitor automated systems. There aren't that many experts left. On the other side of the counter, unless you have developed/purchased your own sophisticated programmes to do most of the work for you, then there is no option to recruit cheaper, less skilled labour. It was soon very evident that Centaur could not get anywhere near promised targets so it went back to square one - Keith Sobey using his tipping line bets for straight out punting. Ever tried punting your way out of a deep financial hole? Has it ever worked? Not likely. Complicate that with all the stresses of trying to hold a business which you have invested heavily in and it's a desperate picture. No time to do the form properly, bookies seeing him coming a mile off and laying unders every time and lo & behold, the business collapsed because for all the good intentions in the world, if you don't arm yourself with the resources to make the business a success, you have more chance of flying to the Moon than turning a profit....
If reports are true about Sobey and co being prepared to pay back investors, then I'm glad and that's one less nasty black mark against the industry. But it will make it very hard for a sports investment fund to get off the ground unless they are far more professional about it. An Australian firm called Priomha are making positive steps at doing that, following basic business school principles, and importantly for punters and investors, being very transparent about what they do. I am certain it can be done properly - but there is no room for sloppiness, cutting corners or ill discipline as we've seen from the Centaur fiasco.
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
Thats quite a story on the link posted peter,and very well written by the author,im amazed people fell for it ,how does one even recruit clients for this kind of thing -madness and convince them to part with there money i am astonished ,
Marc
Marc
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JollyGreen
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
Sadly Marc, people fall for schemes everyday. If you Google "Betfair System" or "Betfair Loophole" you will find lots of get rich quick schemes. It is the lure of "easy money" that pulls them in. Centaur was virtually the same thing but on a larger scale.convoysur-2 wrote:Thats quite a story on the link posted peter,and very well written by the author,im amazed people fell for it ,how does one even recruit clients for this kind of thing -madness and convince them to part with there money i am astonished ,
Marc
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
GREED is usually what makes people fall for these schemes. This type of scam is small fry compared to some scams out there. Living here in bangkok where rule of law is loose and cheap, there are people worth in excess of xxx million+ dollars from just calling up people and selling them false dreams of quick profit.
Didn't one of the Centaur mob actually write the 'Betfair Loophole' ebook? That should have been warning enough.JollyGreen wrote:Sadly Marc, people fall for schemes everyday. If you Google "Betfair System" or "Betfair Loophole" you will find lots of get rich quick schemes. It is the lure of "easy money" that pulls them in. Centaur was virtually the same thing but on a larger scale.
This sort of shit makes me so mad. Why do people think they can just steal peoples money? I hope they have to pay it all back.
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spreadbetting
- Posts: 3140
- Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm
I think accusing them of stealing is a step too far. To me it looks like they were pretty much naive, clueless and believed their own hype rather than setting out to defraud anyone. Hopefully if the story is true the investors should get repaid with Sobey hoping to avoid the courts.Boing wrote: This sort of shit makes me so mad. Why do people think they can just steal peoples money? I hope they have to pay it all back.
It's worth remembering we're all out to get the mug money one way or another not involved in some noble art of pitting our wits against our peers.
If you win money off me by being better than me, then hats off to you. We all compete under our own steam and risk.
If you ask for my money using false claims then give it to somebody who losses it and who can't even trade their own account to a profit, that's pretty much fraud IMHO.
If you ask for my money using false claims then give it to somebody who losses it and who can't even trade their own account to a profit, that's pretty much fraud IMHO.
Just found this and thought it closes the loop nicely on this saga, what a shambles and an affront to people who bust their balls legitimately finding an edge in the market: -
http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north- ... ed-6708570
Betting investment firm bosses have been banned from running another company for eight years after losing millions while gamblers were kept in the dark.
Northumberland-based Centaur Global collapsed in 2012, owing £2m. At the time it went under the firm had been trading while insolvent for two years.
Now an insolvency judgement reveals the full extent of the failure – and how it may never be known where all the money went.
Founded by a former Audit Commission senior manager Keith Sobey in 2000, Centaur provided members of the public and institutions with the opportunity to invest in gaming related funds and in gambling.
It went on to open an “academy” in the heart of London’s financial district and as recently as January 2011 claimed it was on track to handle £20m worth of investment funds, creating £2m a year in revenue.
But Centaur was placed into liquidation in January 2012 owing creditors more than £2m, including a significant shortfall of client account monies.
Now the Insolvency Service judgement show the company was in trouble long before that, losing money nearly every month from the end of 2008 onwards, and using its clients’ supposedly ring-fenced cash to try to cover mounting problems at the business.
Centaur started life as a tipping service with Sobey, 65, his wife Hazel, 60 – a former head of payroll for C&A – and fellow auditor Andrew Cork, 54, at the helm.
It opened its City trading academy in January 2010 on the back of changes to legislation which opened up the European betting and sports investment markets.
The 4,000sq ft academy in London’s City Tower offices delivered training, mentoring and analysis services to “sports traders”, with a daily course costing up to £500.
The company’s investment products were privately-managed accounts rather than pooled funds and used investors’ money to follow betting programmes on horse-racing, football and tennis.
Sobey – who had homes in Seahouses, the Lake District, London and Tenerife, and owned the Northumberland village’s newsagents, which his family ran – claimed his horse-racing fund delivered a 200% annual return and said he hoped to expand the business into the US and eventually bring in revenues of £100m.
But in 2009 Centaur Global made net losses of £414,598, and the picture did not improve in 2010, as the firm found itself down a further £465,817.
Analysis of Centaur Global’s records and accounts showed that money from clients’ accounts was being used to shore up the company.
By December 2011 the total shortfall in its clients’ accounts had passed £1.5m, but directors continued to advertise as if clients’ money was protected.
When Centaur Global finally called in the liquidators on January 26, 2012, it owed investors more than £1.63m – but a complex series of loans between the firm and its sister entity Centaur Holdings, and their directors, coupled to a lack of records mean there are still questions as to exactly where that money went.
In the year to 2010 Centaur Global received loans from Centaur Holdings of £564,000, but paid £731,623 to subsidise its sister company. By the time it went under, Centaur Global was still owed £87,940 by the other business.
But the Insolvency Service also found that from January 2011 records were less than “substantive” – a period that saw all monies from the designated client reserves drained and transferred into a new company current account.
From 2010 onwards loans of more than £1.5m were made to company directors to gamble with in an effort to receive “better returns than those offered to Global.”
According to the directors this betting saw a total of £4,147,497 staked or lost, against winnings of £4,148,487 – a net profit of just £990 in two years, but these accounts were labelled “inconsistent” by the Insolvency Service, which said it had “not been possible to ascertain the true figure of returns due to Global” or account for £1,582,602 of the firm’s cash.
The firm’s clients told investigators that had they known that the company was breaching its own terms and conditions by not keeping their cash in separate accounts and using their cash to bet without asking them first then they would have not gone anywhere near Centaur.
The Insolvency Service judgement stated that Mr Sobey’s explanations of the firm’s activities were “inconsistent.”
It is not yet known if any prosecutions have been brought over the case.
A spokesman for the Serious Fraud Office said:
Last year joint liquidators Jamie Taylor and Kirstie Provan of Begbies Traynor concluded a settlement in respect of a seven figure claim brought against the directors of Centaur Global.
Details of the settlement remain confidential, but the liquidators and a legal team said they had “achieved significant recoveries for the benefit of creditors.”
Mr Taylor said: “The operation of the company was the subject of a full investigation by the Contentious Insolvency Division at Begbies Traynor, and by progressing proactive aggressive litigation against the directors, we have within a very short period of time maximized the potential recovery of funds on behalf of the creditors.”
http://www.thejournal.co.uk/news/north- ... ed-6708570
Betting investment firm bosses have been banned from running another company for eight years after losing millions while gamblers were kept in the dark.
Northumberland-based Centaur Global collapsed in 2012, owing £2m. At the time it went under the firm had been trading while insolvent for two years.
Now an insolvency judgement reveals the full extent of the failure – and how it may never be known where all the money went.
Founded by a former Audit Commission senior manager Keith Sobey in 2000, Centaur provided members of the public and institutions with the opportunity to invest in gaming related funds and in gambling.
It went on to open an “academy” in the heart of London’s financial district and as recently as January 2011 claimed it was on track to handle £20m worth of investment funds, creating £2m a year in revenue.
But Centaur was placed into liquidation in January 2012 owing creditors more than £2m, including a significant shortfall of client account monies.
Now the Insolvency Service judgement show the company was in trouble long before that, losing money nearly every month from the end of 2008 onwards, and using its clients’ supposedly ring-fenced cash to try to cover mounting problems at the business.
Centaur started life as a tipping service with Sobey, 65, his wife Hazel, 60 – a former head of payroll for C&A – and fellow auditor Andrew Cork, 54, at the helm.
It opened its City trading academy in January 2010 on the back of changes to legislation which opened up the European betting and sports investment markets.
The 4,000sq ft academy in London’s City Tower offices delivered training, mentoring and analysis services to “sports traders”, with a daily course costing up to £500.
The company’s investment products were privately-managed accounts rather than pooled funds and used investors’ money to follow betting programmes on horse-racing, football and tennis.
Sobey – who had homes in Seahouses, the Lake District, London and Tenerife, and owned the Northumberland village’s newsagents, which his family ran – claimed his horse-racing fund delivered a 200% annual return and said he hoped to expand the business into the US and eventually bring in revenues of £100m.
But in 2009 Centaur Global made net losses of £414,598, and the picture did not improve in 2010, as the firm found itself down a further £465,817.
Analysis of Centaur Global’s records and accounts showed that money from clients’ accounts was being used to shore up the company.
By December 2011 the total shortfall in its clients’ accounts had passed £1.5m, but directors continued to advertise as if clients’ money was protected.
When Centaur Global finally called in the liquidators on January 26, 2012, it owed investors more than £1.63m – but a complex series of loans between the firm and its sister entity Centaur Holdings, and their directors, coupled to a lack of records mean there are still questions as to exactly where that money went.
In the year to 2010 Centaur Global received loans from Centaur Holdings of £564,000, but paid £731,623 to subsidise its sister company. By the time it went under, Centaur Global was still owed £87,940 by the other business.
But the Insolvency Service also found that from January 2011 records were less than “substantive” – a period that saw all monies from the designated client reserves drained and transferred into a new company current account.
From 2010 onwards loans of more than £1.5m were made to company directors to gamble with in an effort to receive “better returns than those offered to Global.”
According to the directors this betting saw a total of £4,147,497 staked or lost, against winnings of £4,148,487 – a net profit of just £990 in two years, but these accounts were labelled “inconsistent” by the Insolvency Service, which said it had “not been possible to ascertain the true figure of returns due to Global” or account for £1,582,602 of the firm’s cash.
The firm’s clients told investigators that had they known that the company was breaching its own terms and conditions by not keeping their cash in separate accounts and using their cash to bet without asking them first then they would have not gone anywhere near Centaur.
The Insolvency Service judgement stated that Mr Sobey’s explanations of the firm’s activities were “inconsistent.”
It is not yet known if any prosecutions have been brought over the case.
A spokesman for the Serious Fraud Office said:
Last year joint liquidators Jamie Taylor and Kirstie Provan of Begbies Traynor concluded a settlement in respect of a seven figure claim brought against the directors of Centaur Global.
Details of the settlement remain confidential, but the liquidators and a legal team said they had “achieved significant recoveries for the benefit of creditors.”
Mr Taylor said: “The operation of the company was the subject of a full investigation by the Contentious Insolvency Division at Begbies Traynor, and by progressing proactive aggressive litigation against the directors, we have within a very short period of time maximized the potential recovery of funds on behalf of the creditors.”
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Wainwright
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:10 pm
Keith Sobey still going apparently;
http://www.kstips.com/about.html
...and this ex-investor not happy about it;
https://storify.com/Rock1962/do-not-trust-keieth-sobey
http://www.kstips.com/about.html
...and this ex-investor not happy about it;
https://storify.com/Rock1962/do-not-trust-keieth-sobey