So much discussion about automation on the forum

[jimibt]

well, rounding off (rather than sounding off!), it's always good to remember the old adage: Fear kills more dreams than failure ever will.

g'nite all

[Big Bad Barney]

About Chicago floor traders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--H8SY334Zw

About 56minutes in...it's quite amusing...
There's a guy on there adamant that the algo traders were ruining everything....

[wearthefoxhat]

About Chicago floor traders
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--H8SY334Zw

About 56minutes in...it's quite amusing...
There's a guy on there adamant that the algo traders were ruining everything....

@27.13 "The market is a whore, it's out to f&%k as many people as it can, It's its' job."

[mcgoo]

IMHO, you've got to shake off the conspiracy theories or else you will never get anywhere.

Newbies always feel like they are being tricked into losing money, but it's just the counter-intuitive nature of the market. I'm always surprised, from day one to today, how people let the hubris of the market trick them into thinking there is some grand scheme at play. It's an epic demonstration of psychology at play.

The quicker you come to terms that there isn't and that's just the way a market works, the faster you will make real progress. If you let that eat you, you will go mad.

The market is a chaotic amalgam of many participants, not all of which can be right at that specific moment, or all the time. Whatever they are doing.

Like button needed-as per another thread. I struggle with some of your posts Mr W...hard to read for amateur like me ..but that one is a particularly good un imho. I made the decision to put my conspiracy theories aside and realise that if someone had figured it out they are on a boat somewhere & a billionaire anyway-which still leaves the rest of us..and if not oh well..I seem to be able to bob along (recent revelation) watching the flashing lights -I seem to see more and more as a result. Not cracked it yet and might never int terms of enough to full time it (another recent revelation would you believe -edit: Genuine thanks Derek)but at least the market doesn't feel like an enemy anymore

[Derek27]

This thread's reminded me of a good post from JollyGreen.

The market is powerful and if it wants to move in a certain direction it will. This is driven by money so an individual is placing themselves in danger if they try and outmuscle the market. Think of the market as a train leaving a station, it starts slowly but it quickly gathers momentum. Ask yourself if you would rather jump on the train and enjoy the ride or stand on the track in its way? I know which one I would prefer! You can of course abstain and if there is any doubt then simply stay out!

I wrote a post here Back Lay or abstain? that reflects this subject very well.


So how do we deal with this? Well my view is quite a simple one and I tell this to any traders who will listen. Treat the market as your friend and go with that you see. I appreciate we see different things and I mentioned this at the start. What’s important is you trade what you see, who remembers Catchphrase? If you get it wrong, close the position and then ask yourself why. After a while you will start to understand the error and then steadily improve. If you treat the market as your enemy or become suspicious about a trend you are doomed. There is already a delay in the market and while you are trying to determine if the market is trying to trick you the delay is getting bigger.

[Kai]

It's a damn shame he doesn't post anymore.

There's an endless stream of newbies that could really use that sort of advice as the markets get progressively harder to trade over the years, I seriously doubt that they'll be digging up his old buried threads and posts!

His post in full is here btw, OP should try and see if he can identify himself with that one : viewtopic.php?p=94272#p94272

[Derek27]

It's a damn shame he doesn't post anymore.

There's an endless stream of newbies that could really use that sort of advice as the markets get progressively harder to trade over the years, I seriously doubt that they'll be digging up his old buried threads and posts!

They have been pinned to the board so it shouldn't require any digging. I wasn't a newbie when I joined but still found them well worth reading.

[xtrader16]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15tW09BBXo

This is Manual Traders v Automation waiting for the +05:00 countdown stops around +02:00.

[Kai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15tW09BBXo

This is Manual Traders v Automation waiting for the +05:00 countdown stops around +02:00.

Seriously, why not focus on what manual does best and not what it can't do, which is maybe directly compete with automation? Why not just look for the positives and opportunities instead of dwelling on the negatives? I don't get it.

You just end up as your own worst enemy if you personalize every trade.

[Crazyskier]

It baffles me that I see so much discussion going on regarding automation and far less about manual trading.
Is everyone so good at manual trading that they step up their game and chase automation or are people skipping manual work altogether?
I know betangel is primarily the forum for the tool that was developed but so much automation talk is discouraging, I feel left out if I don't start digging into the subject, but I think manual trading is where its at to perhaps make a living out of.

Speaking for myself, I initially tried manual trading and still dabble to a certain degree (though it's more a correction or intervention when I see WOM and signals going against me usually); however the overwhelming majority of my activity is auto, or 'botting'.

The main reasons are the removal of emotion and impulse which have, over the years cost me more than I'm willing to admit. Many helpful chaps hereabouts have helped me refine and adopt systems that win some and lose some, but in most cases produce more than they lose, more consistently by far than anything I can do manually.

The other big reason is the time element. You don't need to sit at your screen for endless hours once the strategies are tried-and-tested, and the ability to set and forget is very welcome, especially with the 5k hourly transaction limit now in place.

Hope this helps.

CS

[xtrader16]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15tW09BBXo

This is Manual Traders v Automation waiting for the +05:00 countdown stops around +02:00.

Seriously, why not focus on what manual does best and not what it can't do, which is maybe directly compete with automation? Why not just look for the positives and opportunities instead of dwelling on the negatives? I don't get it.

You just end up as your own worst enemy if you personalize every trade.

Who 'personalises every trade' it baffels me where people get these bold statements from. We live in a world were people think something, say it out loud then belive it to be true no matter what because they said it out loud. How did Society get to this point?

My point is Automation controls the order flow. Nothing more.

[Derek27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15tW09BBXo

This is Manual Traders v Automation waiting for the +05:00 countdown stops around +02:00.

You're living in a world as fanciful as the clip you've just posted.

I've heard a so-called 'pro' trader say you can make a lot of money trading tennis but horse racing is impossible. Some people are under the delusion that if they can't do something nobody can!

A good manual trader can make a fortune whereas a bad botter would lose a fortune, and vice versa - we all have our strengths and weaknesses. The main advantage of automation is that it can run 24/7 on several markets simaltainously, thereby increasing the volume of trades. I would guess botters have a smaller profit margin than manual traders and are relying on bulk.

[Derek27]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15tW09BBXo

This is Manual Traders v Automation waiting for the +05:00 countdown stops around +02:00.

Seriously, why not focus on what manual does best and not what it can't do, which is maybe directly compete with automation? Why not just look for the positives and opportunities instead of dwelling on the negatives? I don't get it.

You just end up as your own worst enemy if you personalize every trade.

Who 'personalises every trade' it baffels me where people get these bold statements from. We live in a world were people think something, say it out loud then belive it to be true no matter what because they said it out loud. How did Society get to this point?

My point is Automation controls the order flow. Nothing more.

You're baffled?? I was baffled as to what a sci-fi clip has to do with trading.

So, if a manual trader chucks £10K into the market it has no effect on order flow, but if a bot places exactly the same money in the same place that does?

[Derek27]

My point is Automation controls the order flow. Nothing more.

So you no longer feel manual traders don't have a chance or are at a huge disadvantage?

[Kai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15tW09BBXo

This is Manual Traders v Automation waiting for the +05:00 countdown stops around +02:00.

Seriously, why not focus on what manual does best and not what it can't do, which is maybe directly compete with automation? Why not just look for the positives and opportunities instead of dwelling on the negatives? I don't get it.

You just end up as your own worst enemy if you personalize every trade.

Who 'personalises every trade' it baffels me where people get these bold statements from. We live in a world were people think something, say it out loud then belive it to be true no matter what because they said it out loud. How did Society get to this point?

Surely you're talking about your own bold statements with that? Because they are the boldest by far : "Professionals use Automation - Amateurs trade manually. Decide which one you want to be."

My point is Automation controls the order flow. Nothing more.

True or not, I don't see a problem with it either way?!

If something is automated and programmed to behave in a certain way it usually means repeated behavior, which means traders can recognize some of these patterns, which in turn means the patterns provide some of the best opportunities, which obviously means they can be actively traded and taken advantage of.

So, like I said, don't see where the problem is. If everything was completely random and beyond erratic, then the markets would be an absolute nightmare for all of us. Luckily they are not, because they a direct reflection of our strongest two emotions in fear and greed.

In other words, if you're saying that bots are ruining your day on the markets then I probably believe you. But people on here might have a problem with these sorts of dangerous generalizations offered as advice to newcomers like OP. You can understand why Peter was ticked off by that, not to mention Derek!