are we still a fair country

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mulberryhawk
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:37 am

Jeff you question any stats that dont suit your right wing free market mindset. :shock:

If you were a true to your free market ideology you would be rejoicing at the immigrants flooding into the country "competing" for jobs and driving down "costs" enabling the UK to become more "competitive". Double standards if you ask me.

This free market rhetoric is laughable, lets take it even further and cut taxes on the "wealth creators" who create jobs for all the wage slaves out there who should not share the rewards of their labour but should benefit from the trickle down effect when these masters of business decide to part with their surplus cash.

And better yet lets allow these benovlent good samaritans to reward themselves and their ceo friends richly for a job well done and paying as little corporation tax as possible, never mind that they drive their companies into the ground hurting shareholders because if we want to be "competitive" in a global marketplace we have to be seen to be paying top dollar for the best "talent".
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

I feel much the same way about capitalism as I do about democracy - it's far from perfect, but it beats the hell out of any other system out there.

If we had an economy where all the government did basically was defend out borders, uphold the criminal and civil law, and build roads, ie something approaching a free market economy, I might actually welcome mass immigration. However, as things are, what immigration means in practice is that we'd have to provide unemployment benefit and other services to lots of economically inactive Brits, whilst providing public services like healthcare and education to hoards of immigrants who were taking the jobs that many unemployed Brits were qualified to do. It would be plain stupid!

BTW, can we stick to the arguments please, rather than introducing little barbs about what stats the other person does and doesn't like to focus on? :)

Jeff
mulberryhawk
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:37 am

BTW, can we stick to the arguments please, rather than introducing little barbs about what stats the other person does and doesn't like to focus on? :)
will do, no more stats barbs from now on I promise :cry:
mister man
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm

yes "mulberryhawk I agree with you, debating with ferru is like talking to a man who will only discuss the england v holland friendly on the basis the score was 2-2, we all know the score was 2-3, but he will only proceed to discuss matters on the basis the score was 2-2 and as if it were indeed 2-2, this thread demonstrates this self denial marvellously, should you wish to view past posts
payuppal
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:16 pm

Key points
•5.4 million people were in receipt of an out-of-work benefit in February 2010. Of these, 2.6 million (48%) were sick or disabled, 1.5 million (28%) were unemployed and 0.7 million (13%) were lone parents.
•Up until 2008, numbers had been falling slowly but steadily, from 5.3 million in February 2000 to 4.7 million in February 2008. The majority of the fall was in unemployed claimants, the numbers of which fell by a third over the period, from 1.2 million to 800,000. By contrast, the number of sick or disabled claimants remained broadly unchanged.
•Between February 2008 and February 2010, however, numbers rose sharply, from 4.7 million to 5.4 million (i.e. back to the levels of a decade previously). All of this rise was in the number of unemployed claimants which, by February 2010, was actually substantially higher than a decade previously (1.5 million). Again, the number of sick or disabled claimants remained broadly unchanged.
•Despite the recent rise in unemployed claimants, the biggest group of claimants remains those who are sick or disabled. Two-fifths of all claimants of out-of-work disability benefits have mental or behaviour disorders. This is more than twice the size of the next largest group, namely those with musculo-skeletal disorders.
•Two-fifths of all working-age claimants of out-of-work disability benefits are aged less than 45.
•Almost twice as many working-age people in the North East and Wales are recipients of out-of-work benefits as in the South East.
The figures quoted by mister man on the total number in receipt of benefits were wrong. Above are the correct figures. My post about the rise in the number claiming disability benefit since 1970 was correct.

The issue now is this.

The world has changed in the last few years and the extensive safety net put in place in the UK, which has often had perverse incentives not to work, has to change with it.

Many on the Left don't see this.

Doesn't matter.

You can moan and groan, and blame capitalism, and construct ideal little worlds in your mind. But the money to pay for these schemes is no longer there, and won't be in the future.

I live in the Far East, among the 90 countries that enjoyed more than 4% growth in 2010.

They work much harder, they study much harder, they save much more.

Some in the UK bleat about manufacturing jobs. How are they going to compete with people prepared to work 12 hours a day, six days a week? Who save, so that there is capital to build new plant, instead of spending it all on benefits and the public sector.

The only question is whether the UK will see an absolute decline.

A relative decline is certain.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Payuppal-

Spot on sir, spot on! :)

For years, this country has been living in a fantasy world, financed by borrowed money, and we're only slowly beginning to wake up to the fact that it can't go on forever.

My housemate Ian was, until recently, a teacher. I asked him what percentage of his pupils used to impress him with their attitude, and he said 'about 10%'. Says it all, really. I worry that we're producing a generation of media studies graduates who lack both the technical skills and the work ethic required to enable Britain to hold its own in the world. I sense there's a general attitude of blame and quiet desperation, rather than one of 'I might have been dealt a poor hand of cards, but I'm going to work bloody hard and take calculated risks, and really go for it. Life gives you lemons - make lemonade!'.

Jeff
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Workers taken ill on their holidays will be given extra time off - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... e-off.html

I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Jeff
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Why Britain's fallen out of love with the welfare state

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... z1o2jSC6r1

'Britain now spends 7.2 per cent of GDP on its welfare system.' - I think Mister Man needs to check his sources, as that's a bit higher than the 0.6% figure he gave...

The article also makes the following interesting observations:

'Given the British people are better housed, fed and cared for than any generation before, it beggars belief that today more than 2.5 million people of working age are paid almost £8 billion in disability benefits.

Tens of thousands are apparently unable to work because of dizziness, depression, headaches and phobias, while 2,000 people claim benefits because they are ‘too fat to work’.

Embarrassingly, Britain now has the highest proportion of working-age people on disability benefit in the developed world. And while just 3  per cent of Japanese people and 5  per cent of Americans live in households where no one works, the figure in Britain is a humiliating 13  per cent.'[/i]

Jeff
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LeTiss
Posts: 5485
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

I've been reading this thread with interest, and the general mood is very much in line with the general mood I'm experiencing everywhere

I think people have become disillusioned with mainstream politics. These politicians are only interested in power, and in themselves. Their PC attitudes to everything, desperate not to upset anybody, has created a frustrated and angry section of society. This section is growing rapidly.

Let's be honest, we are unhappy with uncontrolled immigration, we are unhappy at lazy bastards not wanting to work, we are unhappy with greedy bankers, we are basically unhappy with everyone and everything.

I do admit to developing stronger feelings towards fringe parties than ever before, because I don't think we look after our own.

Anyway, how's your new job going Mr Ferru?
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

LeTiss 4pm wrote: Anyway, how's your new job going Mr Ferru?
Really well, thanks!

I'm working in a very friendly environment. I can honestly say that I've yet to encounter anyone I intensely dislike, which is unusual for me, three weeks into a new job! And the other day, I was having lunch in my car, when two female colleagues I'd never met invited me to join them in the local pub! Normally, that kind of thing just doesn't happen to me! :lol:

Jeff
PeterLe
Posts: 3726
Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 3:19 pm

Jeff
Glad to hear your new job is going well.
Even if you wasn't doing it for the money, it is nice to get out of the "Betting and Trading" environment for a while and talk to people about something other than betfair.
Nobody I work with knows about my trading and its a nice escape..anyway hope it goes well..(Sorry for going off topic!)

Regards
Peter
PS You can also look forward to the Christmas Parties! ;)
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superfrank
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm

@LeTiss

spot on. the problem is that there isn't a mainstream political party that represents those general common sense views (of a large proportion of the population imho).

Labour and the Lib Dems are still stuck in a fantasy land where the state dictates the success or otherwise of society and the economy. the Tories don't know what land they're in anymore.

it's a shame the working class still vote for Labour en masse - it's only history and habit (and nauseating spin by Labour) that this continues. Labour doesn't represent the working the class - it represents a few intellectual leftie luvvies. the working classes hate immigration, political correctness etc. Labour betrayed the working class by deliberately allowing mass immigration (for their own political gain) at the expense of the working classes.

edit:
@Jeff
congratulations on the new job. you should return the favour and invite the girls to lunch in your car!
payuppal
Posts: 103
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:16 pm

The problem I have with the fringe parties is that they tip very easily over into racism, and that they don't focus on the extent to which the white working class are architects of their own misfortune.

Immigration into this country over the last 60 years has been a lot about finding people to do the jobs that the white working class no longer want or are prepared to do.

So it was with the people brought in from the Commonwealth during the 50s; so it was with the migrants from the EU over the last 20 years.

But neither the BNP nor UKIP want to tell their followers this.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Thanks Frank.

I think I'd need to get the car's suspension looked at before I did that! ;)

Jeff
superfrank wrote: @Jeff
congratulations on the new job. you should return the favour and invite the girls to lunch in your car!
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superfrank
Posts: 2762
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm

payuppal wrote:Immigration into this country over the last 60 years has been a lot about finding people to do the jobs that the white working class no longer want or are prepared to do.
that might have been true in the 50s but it was just an excuse during the latest wave of mass immigration. we have a huge underclass now that are dependant on welfare - the solution to that problem should never have been to import cheap labour (that will just create an even bigger underclass in the future). it has been proved that there is no overall economic benefit to the UK from the immigration of the last 10 or 15 years, but there are social costs including racial tensions, housing, and greater demand for all public services.
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