It's fair comment that labour from the EU has depressed wage rates, Polish builders for example, and taken jobs that it would have been better for locals to have.
Though I would prefer to be served by a relatively keen middle European than some chippy English girl who thinks it's all beneath her.
I'm not sure it was an unintended consequence of the EU, an intended plot to drive down labour costs, or a sneaky way of creating a multicultural society..
are we still a fair country
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mister man
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm
superfrank wrote:that might have been true in the 50s but it was just an excuse during the latest wave of mass immigration. we have a huge underclass now that are dependant on welfare - the solution to that problem should never have been to import cheap labour (that will just create an even bigger underclass in the future). it has been proved that there is no overall economic benefit to the UK from the immigration of the last 10 or 15 years, but there are social costs including racial tensions, housing, and greater demand for all public services.payuppal wrote:Immigration into this country over the last 60 years has been a lot about finding people to do the jobs that the white working class no longer want or are prepared to do.
spot on superfrank,the notion that we have 4.9M lazy white people who wont work, is insulting and ignorant in the extreme. who benefits from cheap labour,its not those working for poverty wages is it,its mr camerons friends,and those exploiting the desperation of others to work.
a lot of the recent immigrants to this country get preferential treatment to the indigenous population in many many ways,from employment,benefits,and a whole host of services, if any party (other than the fringe nut job parties) was to truly represent the working class we would see a much different political landscape, sadly both new labour and now the lib dems are almost as tory as the tories, hence the huge mess we are all now in.
happy days (not)
Workfare programme is a hit with the unemployed: Working for nothing – and proud of it too - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... t-too.html
I'm not actually saying that the 5.6 million on benefits are all lazy and useless.
Simply that a situation has been allowed to develop that can no longer be sustained, IMO.
It's true that practically all of the jobs created from the mid 1990's onward were taken by immigrants.
If there had been no such choice, they would have been taken by locals, or not filled. For them to have been taken by locals, higher wages would be needed to make it worthwhile coming off benefit.
In practice, there was collusion between the desire for cheap labour and political expediency over benefits.
But we can't afford to continue like this.
By the way, what would the white working class be voting for?
Limit immigration, and cut our benefits so we have to take the low paying jobs now available?
Simply that a situation has been allowed to develop that can no longer be sustained, IMO.
It's true that practically all of the jobs created from the mid 1990's onward were taken by immigrants.
If there had been no such choice, they would have been taken by locals, or not filled. For them to have been taken by locals, higher wages would be needed to make it worthwhile coming off benefit.
In practice, there was collusion between the desire for cheap labour and political expediency over benefits.
But we can't afford to continue like this.
By the way, what would the white working class be voting for?
Limit immigration, and cut our benefits so we have to take the low paying jobs now available?
Budget 2012: Ed Balls calls for benefits rethink - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17249698
'Mr Balls described the child benefit changes due to come into effect in January 2013 as "perverse anomalies" which would affect hundreds of thousands of families.
He said a family with three children on £43,000, where one person was working, would lose £2,500, while a household with two earners on £42,000 each would keep the child benefit.'
What planet is this guy living on?!?
Since when does a family with an income of £43,000 deserve any benefits from the state???
Jeff
'Mr Balls described the child benefit changes due to come into effect in January 2013 as "perverse anomalies" which would affect hundreds of thousands of families.
He said a family with three children on £43,000, where one person was working, would lose £2,500, while a household with two earners on £42,000 each would keep the child benefit.'
What planet is this guy living on?!?
Since when does a family with an income of £43,000 deserve any benefits from the state???
Jeff
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steven1976
- Posts: 1744
- Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 6:28 am
One thing for sure, its a mess! Huge debts and not so much export other than services that I can think of to bring new money into the economy. You would imagine for those dependant on benefits it will surely get worse before it gets better.
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mister man
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm
interesting, looking at the posts, it would seem,we arent anymore, how sad is that.
Mister Man
You still haven't told us what specifically you would do if you were PM. For example, I asked how much benefit you think I should receive if I lose my job, but you didn't answer...
It's easy to criticise, but do you have a better solution than the status quo?
Jeff
You still haven't told us what specifically you would do if you were PM. For example, I asked how much benefit you think I should receive if I lose my job, but you didn't answer...
It's easy to criticise, but do you have a better solution than the status quo?
Jeff
mister man wrote:interesting, looking at the posts, it would seem,we arent anymore, how sad is that.
I don't think this is quite true and in fact would draw an opposite conclusion and say that immigration is econcomically beneficial and its a no brainer.
http://www.centreforum.org/assets/pubs/ ... ration.pdf
The problem is that there are some professions that ordinary britain wouldn't entertain the thought of going in to simply because the State is there to provide a reasonably comfortable living without too much hassle.
Ordinary britain (and I don't mean white working class only) not want to work for private sector doing jobs like office clearner, toilet cleaners, fruit pickers etc. even at national minimum wage so these needs are then filled by immigrant community which then creates perception problem which then breeds anti-immigration and even racist tone. But then we end up with the same position where nobody likes immigration but don't want to do some of the jobs that immigrats do or capable of doing and end up getting immigrants anyway.
Unemployment is high but there are also vacancies that are not being filled by indigenous so leaving no alternative but to look overseas to sustain britain's growth. Alternative is to address the welfare system that gets people out of their slumber state and get jobs, introduce flexible to property market so that;s easier to move location, get rid of some of the class division so that everyone prospers rather than privilaged maitaining status quo, reform public sector pension so that future generation do not get lumbered with huge debt, and so much more that can be done rather than bog down in petty politics.
I hope this corrects some of the dubious claims and assertion:superfrank wrote:that might have been true in the 50s but it was just an excuse during the latest wave of mass immigration. we have a huge underclass now that are dependant on welfare - the solution to that problem should never have been to import cheap labour (that will just create an even bigger underclass in the future). it has been proved that there is no overall economic benefit to the UK from the immigration of the last 10 or 15 years, but there are social costs including racial tensions, housing, and greater demand for all public services.payuppal wrote:Immigration into this country over the last 60 years has been a lot about finding people to do the jobs that the white working class no longer want or are prepared to do.
http://www.centreforum.org/assets/pubs/ ... ration.pdf
The problem is that there are some professions that ordinary britain wouldn't entertain the thought of going in to simply because the State is there to provide a reasonably comfortable living without too much hassle.
Ordinary britain (and I don't mean white working class only) not want to work for private sector doing jobs like office clearner, toilet cleaners, fruit pickers etc. even at national minimum wage so these needs are then filled by immigrant community which then creates perception problem which then breeds anti-immigration and even racist tone. But then we end up with the same position where nobody likes immigration but don't want to do some of the jobs that immigrats do or capable of doing and end up getting immigrants anyway.
Unemployment is high but there are also vacancies that are not being filled by indigenous so leaving no alternative but to look overseas to sustain britain's growth. Alternative is to address the welfare system that gets people out of their slumber state and get jobs, introduce flexible to property market so that;s easier to move location, get rid of some of the class division so that everyone prospers rather than privilaged maitaining status quo, reform public sector pension so that future generation do not get lumbered with huge debt, and so much more that can be done rather than bog down in petty politics.
Photon
There are certain jobs which few people would choose to do if they had a choice. The reason why many Brits turn down work like toilet cleaning and fruit picking isn't necessarily because of a problem with the culture that makes them particularly predispositioned to laziness. Rather, it's that they have a choice - instead of going out and sweeping the streets in all weather, they can sit at home and collect benefits.
I anticipate that Mr Man will remind us that you can't live on 60 quid a week, or whatever you get as a single person on JSA. That's true, but if you have kids, or can convince a doctor that you have psychological issues that prevent you from working, then you can avoid a life of toil, courtesy of the state. So surely the solution is to get people off the dole and into work by forcing them to apply for rubbish jobs, and accept those jobs if offered the position...
Jeff
There are certain jobs which few people would choose to do if they had a choice. The reason why many Brits turn down work like toilet cleaning and fruit picking isn't necessarily because of a problem with the culture that makes them particularly predispositioned to laziness. Rather, it's that they have a choice - instead of going out and sweeping the streets in all weather, they can sit at home and collect benefits.
I anticipate that Mr Man will remind us that you can't live on 60 quid a week, or whatever you get as a single person on JSA. That's true, but if you have kids, or can convince a doctor that you have psychological issues that prevent you from working, then you can avoid a life of toil, courtesy of the state. So surely the solution is to get people off the dole and into work by forcing them to apply for rubbish jobs, and accept those jobs if offered the position...
Jeff
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superfrank
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm
@Photon
that is a left-wing think tank's view of a report that found that record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons.
these people all want their kids educated, all require housing, welfare and health services and all will ultimately require end of life care just like the rest of us.
mass immigration for short-term economic non-gain is absolute madness.
that is a left-wing think tank's view of a report that found that record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons.
these people all want their kids educated, all require housing, welfare and health services and all will ultimately require end of life care just like the rest of us.
mass immigration for short-term economic non-gain is absolute madness.
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mister man
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm
Ferru123 wrote:Mister Man
You still haven't told us what specifically you would do if you were PM. For example, I asked how much benefit you think I should receive if I lose my job, but you didn't answer...
It's easy to criticise, but do you have a better solution than the status quo?
Jeffmister man wrote:interesting, looking at the posts, it would seem,we arent anymore, how sad is that.
thats funny you asked me on this thread.... and i answered, the posts are still their for anyone that wants to see or can read, what i would do if i were the gov, the answer is still the same...
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mister man
- Posts: 363
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:10 pm
spot on again superfrank....superfrank wrote:@Photon
that is a left-wing think tank's view of a report that found that record levels of immigration have had "little or no impact" on the economic well-being of Britons.
these people all want their kids educated, all require housing, welfare and health services and all will ultimately require end of life care just like the rest of us.
mass immigration for short-term economic non-gain is absolute madness.
You didn't go into specifics.
Let's say we have a single unemployed bloke who pays 300 pounds in rent per month (all inclusive), and has no dependents.
Couple of questions:
A. Would you pay all his rent?
B. In addition, how much JSA would you pay him per week?
Jeff
Let's say we have a single unemployed bloke who pays 300 pounds in rent per month (all inclusive), and has no dependents.
Couple of questions:
A. Would you pay all his rent?
B. In addition, how much JSA would you pay him per week?
Jeff
mister man wrote: thats funny you asked me on this thread.... and i answered, the posts are still their for anyone that wants to see or can read, what i would do if i were the gov, the answer is still the same...
PS
c. What would you expect him to do in return for his dole money?
Would you say the following? 'You take your time to find a job that's just right for you. Send out as many or as few applications as you like. There's no rush.'
Or would you say 'I expect you to be all hands to the pump to find a new job, and I'll want to see evidence of your activities'?
Jeff
c. What would you expect him to do in return for his dole money?
Would you say the following? 'You take your time to find a job that's just right for you. Send out as many or as few applications as you like. There's no rush.'
Or would you say 'I expect you to be all hands to the pump to find a new job, and I'll want to see evidence of your activities'?
Jeff