Today's Football

[Kai]

IMO the entire season has been affected by the Van Dijk injury.

But you can quote team selection until the cows come home but in the first leg, couldn't defend a 50yd Toni Kroos long ball for the first goal, A Trent howler for the second and not closed down for the third and Vinicious scored from a position where Virgil would have been ditto for first goal. VVD to Liverpool is what Messi was to Barcelona, Ronaldo to Madrid, Keane to Man Utd etc, you just can't lose a player of that calibre for a full season and levels not drop.

Can't a guy have an irrational rant right after a match?

To be fair I did already post a decent video summary on how Van Dijk's injury ripple effect destroyed the whole balance of the team earlier in the thread at the start of the year : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhv-RL7za3E

Still, no use crying about it and feeling sorry for yourself for the whole season, which the players have been doing when you look at all their interviews. Doesn't mean the whole season should just be scrapped and all the great work undone, managing the rest of your resources and the confidence levels of players to the best of your ability is what being a football manager is about.

Klopp would 100% agree with me there, he must have said that a hundred times by now. I'm his biggest fan on here, didn't see anyone else with his avatar picture, but that doesn't exempt him from criticism where it is due. In a way it's a compliment as well, because of the previously high standards that he set.

Klopp : "It's always my fault, the things that don't work are my fault, the things that do work are down to the players."

(we're all gonna need a Liverpool subforum at some point )

[Kai]

Klopp : "It's always my fault, the things that don't work are my fault, the things that do work are down to the players."

If you go a step deeper and filter out his humble nature and reluctance to take credit, what he means to say is that both good or bad on the pitch is directly his doing, he is responsible for both the criticism and the credit, as he's the manager, it's a no-brainer really.

Surely the only person that wouldn't agree with that line of thinking is Jose Mourinho, someone who loves throwing his players under his bus Which is why I didn't particularly like how he handled Keita in the first leg, subbing him off tactically before HT, making him look like the fall guy.

[Morbius]

Gotta say Madrid was up there for the taking, one of those rare occasions where Klopp makes a right meal of it start to finish, cowardly game management in both legs, especially in tonight's game when Madrid had so many lineup issues and you don't even go for it until it's too late in the game and until everyone is devoid of confidence.

Where do you even start, shocking team selection in both games, cocked it up with that surprise Keita inclusion and embarrassingly subbed him off at 41mins in the 1st leg, lost the tie right there already in the 1st half and shattered Keita's confidence in the process, could have waited 3 mins until HT at least. I guess he wanted to surprise them but backfired spectacularly, has to be record worst performance that Madrid has ever seen over there.

Second game you need goals but you bench your best attacker in insane form, and go with Firmino and Mane who completely lost confidence many months ago, when you know none of them can score if Salah has an off day, Klopp loyal to a fault.

Meanwhile the guy who won everything last year with Bayern and has finally hit good form randomly gets benched for both matches and Milner suddenly becomes a starter against Kroos and Modric, when he can barely keep up with Brighton's midfield, surprisingly ends up chasing shadows in both games and offers nothing in the attacking third.

I'm actually mad

Also it's about timing when you play a team. On balance, Real Madrid are rated a better team, and would be expected to qualify.
Source; http://clubelo.com/


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Already mentoned are the missing players...


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Get them fit for next season, and go again. (Maybe with just the europa league to focus on)

+1

Yeah timing plays a big factor too especially in the CL. I remember Chelsea dumping United in the FA Cup some years ago after they turned their season around and were playing at Uniteds level for half the season but came a mile behind them in points. Ditto when Hiddink went to Chelsea and they really should have got to the CL final in 2009 and they looked formidable against anybody but he only got the job after someone got sacked, I think it was Avram Grant iirc. Short term variations in what is termed "form" often reveals underlying reasons which aren't always reflected in the averages. Another example I think of that is Atletico in La Liga who seem to be playing at a level below where they were several months ago and probably why Chelsea dumped them 3-0 on agg.

And City at 15/8 to win the CL last night was way too short before their second leg. They are 5/4 now which is stupidly too short as they are going into two coin flip ties. Getting back to timing, PSG have lost 8 games this season in Lique 1 and are 3pts behind Lille in a league they usually win at a canter. That suggests problems within the team but they were very strong against Bayern so you make your mind up which is the most indicative?? I believe the odds are being warped by PSG's league position but that is historical. Unlike Liverpool's which still reflects their current problems and City won't face Mbappe and Neymar every week so how they can be 5/4 to win a competition they have never won with a manager who only ever won it at Barcelona is a mystery. Even if City win it they can't be 5/4 before a semi

[Trader Pat]

The Van Dijk injury is obviously where things started to go wrong but Klopp hasn't reacted well to the injuries. I think half the blame for this season is down to bad luck but the other half is down to Klopp. What VVD and Gomez gave you at the back was speed so the team could push up knowing the CB's were quick enough to recover most situations, when they were both lost to injury Klopp insisted on playing the same way but with slower CB's who couldn't get back to cover which then had the knock on effect of the rest of the team lacking confidence in the defence. A criticism that was always made of Klopp even in his Dortmund days was he had no plan B, and watching this season unfold when things weren't going well you're hoping he'll do something different but he didn't. I'm not for a second saying #KLOPPOUT but even if we do get into the Top 4 next season is massive for him, a slow start and he could be gone by Christmas.

On a side not Man City look too short at 2.44, I fancy PSG to do a job on them.

[Morbius]

IMO the entire season has been affected by the Van Dijk injury.

But you can quote team selection until the cows come home but in the first leg, couldn't defend a 50yd Toni Kroos long ball for the first goal, A Trent howler for the second and not closed down for the third and Vinicious scored from a position where Virgil would have been ditto for first goal. VVD to Liverpool is what Messi was to Barcelona, Ronaldo to Madrid, Keane to Man Utd etc, you just can't lose a player of that calibre for a full season and levels not drop.

Can't a guy have an irrational rant right after a match?

To be fair I did already post a decent video summary on how Van Dijk's injury ripple effect destroyed the whole balance of the team earlier in the thread at the start of the year : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhv-RL7za3E

Still, no use crying about it and feeling sorry for yourself for the whole season, which the players have been doing when you look at all their interviews. Doesn't mean the whole season should just be scrapped and all the great work undone, managing the rest of your resources and the confidence levels of players to the best of your ability is what being a football manager is about.

Klopp would 100% agree with me there, he must have said that a hundred times by now. I'm his biggest fan on here, didn't see anyone else with his avatar picture, but that doesn't exempt him from criticism where it is due. In a way it's a compliment as well, because of the previously high standards that he set.

Klopp : "It's always my fault, the things that don't work are my fault, the things that do work are down to the players."

(we're all gonna need a Liverpool subforum at some point )

apologies for not being glued to the forum and seeing every thread Kai

An interesting sub-topic to this is the inefficiency of the football markets based on over/under reactions to current data. For example in the entire history of the English league, the record for most titles won on the trot is 3 and thats only been done 5 times. Huddersfield, Arsenal, Liverpool and twice under Ferguson. But yet the markets always overprice defending champions but its a full year between winning the league and defending it and that's a long time for things to go wrong. In fact "going wrong" is a misnomer, they merely have to fall from a previous high level and in a highly competitive league that's enough. Its pretty difficult to move on from 99/100 pts when the max is 114 but it amazes me how football fans never get how tough this league is and how one player can make a 30pt difference or more......side swipe at the Arsenal fans who wanted Wenger out and now they can't get near the top four. You don't just get a free pass into the top four in the PL unlike other European leagues and that gets reflected on teams winning their top divisions 5/6/7/8 on the run down the years. So any injury to a player like Virgil would have a magnified effect in the PL. Barce lose Messi and they still finish top 3 minimum, same with Ronaldo at Real and even more so with Mbappe/Neymar at PSG but to lose a player like VVD in the PL then you would have to be dominant to a level that I don't believe is possible in this league.

[Kai]

I was actually extremely surprised to see Liverpool at the top earlier in the season, thought they coped quite well up until a point.

Don't really want to play the blame game so I will keep it very short, I pointed my finger earlier at board level and starting the season with only 3 CBs of which 2 are very injury prone, but all injuries aside, an equally big factor is Covid and the fact that Fort Anfield is not a real place anymore. Nobody misses the fans like Liverpool does, think that's an objective enough thing to say.

There's no doubt in my mind that top 4 would be very achievable if this were a normal football season with fans.

But it's fine, as fans we've already been more than blessed with success in the last few years, it's okay if someone else has a crack at it for a bit. I'm personally satisfied with just playing attractive football and challenging for trophies

But I don't really want to see Liverpool play Granada or Slavia in the Europa league next season

[Trader Pat]

Its a very strange season all around Europe for obvious reasons.

Juventus and PSG are in scraps just to finish in the Champions League spots in their leagues.

[Morbius]

The Van Dijk injury is obviously where things started to go wrong but Klopp hasn't reacted well to the injuries. I think half the blame for this season is down to bad luck but the other half is down to Klopp. What VVD and Gomez gave you at the back was speed so the team could push up knowing the CB's were quick enough to recover most situations, when they were both lost to injury Klopp insisted on playing the same way but with slower CB's who couldn't get back to cover which then had the knock on effect of the rest of the team lacking confidence in the defence. A criticism that was always made of Klopp even in his Dortmund days was he had no plan B, and watching this season unfold when things weren't going well you're hoping he'll do something different but he didn't. I'm not for a second saying #KLOPPOUT but even if we do get into the Top 4 next season is massive for him, a slow start and he could be gone by Christmas.

On a side not Man City look too short at 2.44, I fancy PSG to do a job on them.

I have to agree with most of this. I have often felt he lacked a plan B and always has. Just like when Mourinho was in his prime and winning titles but his style had a shelf life. When Jurgens "rock and roll" high octane style works then its formidable hence why they won the league, came close to winning back to backs and won the CL and several other titles. That was a great run but are some of the players suffering from burn out?? Training schedules must reflect on pitch performance so it's not surprising levels have dropped.

He's got a huge job on to get this team title ready for next season but Virgil coming back will be a game changer but as for sacking him, well that's far too early but on the other hand, any manager can only survive for so long irrespective of his CV. Nobody knows that more than Jose

I was ridiculed in a pub when Leicester were struggling after they won the title by saying Ranieri should be sacked. The prem is a brutal place and I recall Robbie Savage saying how "Ranieri had earned the right to take them down" which is one of the most stupid statements I have ever heard come from the mouth on an ex-prem player. Any brutal environment requires brutal decisions but at this stage my money would be on Klopp to turn this around.

[Trader Pat]

Robbie Savage saying something stupid? Surely not?!

[jamesg46]

I thought this was a good explanation of why Liverpool are'nt where they should be... the ripple effect of that injury has been felt through the team.

https://youtu.be/Rhv-RL7za3E

[Trader Pat]

Spare a thought for Spurs fans, even their new sponsors are taking the pi$s

https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/spurs-e ... z5k9o9zdvb

[Morbius]

I was actually extremely surprised to see Liverpool at the top earlier in the season, thought they coped quite well up until a point.

Don't really want to play the blame game so I will keep it very short, I pointed my finger earlier at board level and starting the season with only 3 CBs of which 2 are very injury prone, but all injuries aside, an equally big factor is Covid and the fact that Fort Anfield is not a real place anymore. Nobody misses the fans like Liverpool does, think that's an objective enough thing to say.

There's no doubt in my mind that top 4 would be very achievable if this were a normal football season with fans.

But it's fine, as fans we've already been more than blessed with success in the last few years, it's okay if someone else has a crack at it for a bit. I'm personally satisfied with just playing attractive football and challenging for trophies

But I don't really want to see Liverpool play Granada or Slavia in the Europa league next season

Yes you're right about the fact that Covid effects are not the same for every team and this is easily demonstrable given the data that connects the results by home teams to away teams and stadia size so this is factual and its probably a defining factor for Liverpool potentially making top 4 or not. Also as you point out, the board maybe not spending in areas where they should have spent is also a factor but this gets back to the point that the PL like F1 isn't a level playing field which makes Jurgen's title last year superior to Pep's in 2019 IMHO.

For me given what they have spent, City are probably around where they should be with 3 titles in 4 seasons but their CL record is woeful even before Pep arrived. 2 semi's in all this time is a very poor return and eliminations against teams that were never going to win it like Tottenham/Lyon/Monaco has underlined it even more. Need to remember that Liverpool could have easily won back to back titles and back to back CLs with a bit more luck so this run has been incredible and all great runs must end. Even Ferguson had blips and I recall a conversation with a United fan back in 2014 when I said United should sack Moyes (should never have got the job IMO). He just quoted how United had given Fergie time when he first got the job to which I pointed out that United's share price couldn't drop by half a billion back in 1987!!!!!

This is the environment and reality of the PL now, managers rarely get the luxury of time.

[Kai]

Spare a thought for Spurs fans, even their new sponsors are taking the pi$s

https://www.goal.com/en-ie/news/spurs-e ... z5k9o9zdvb

I pity anyone that has to endure Mourinho as their manager That's way worse than Hodgson.

Let's be real here, the only reason why Jose even landed that job is because Levy always had a man crush on him. I suspect it will be a very expensive divorce too

Not heard from Kaf in a while, would love to get his opinion on that now, hope he's well.

[Trader Pat]

This is the environment and reality of the PL now, managers rarely get the luxury of time.

I think United is the exception. Solskjaer has turned it around recently but he probably would have been sacked by now at any other 'Big 6' club. And that's not credit to the United owners, they don't seem to care as long as Utd finish in the Top 4 and they can continue to use the club as a cash cow.

[Trader Pat]

I pity anyone that has to endure Mourinho as their manager That's way worse than Hodgson.

I was never really a fan of Mourinho until he took the Inter job, I've always had a soft spot for Inter but love him or hate him he's never boring!