Upping stakes - Things to consider?

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Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

I've played with larger stakes before however I was basically trading without a clue. Since then, 2 things have happened. Brexit, and my ability to read the markets is much much better.

I am self employed and the exchange rate crash has had a massive impact on my livelihood. As a result, I had to withdraw my £2000 betfair bank and reduce it down to a measly 50 quid. Since then. I have managed to squeeze about 20 days trading in.

Looking back across the 20 days there is marked improvement in results. Previously I have found that I sucked at reading the markets but my psychology has always been my strong point. Now the two are starting to level out I'm feeling a lot more at home.

Since the reduction of my bank I gave myself a rule to follow. Regardless of the odds of the runner I'm trading, I will only use £2 stakes and never double up. This would make increasing stakes to chase losses impossible and in turn, make my results a bit more accurate. Obviously in the real world however, I would be placing larger stakes on runners with more money being matched. For now though, I accepted that the results would average out as I don't just trade the favorite all the time.

The only problem with using £2 stakes is it limits my execution on swing trades. I always cut my losses short which has never been a problem but I am also cutting my profits short. This isn't particularly by choice though. For example. If the trade has moved 5 ticks in the direction I expected but has temporarily slowed down and is showing signs of possibly stopping or reversing slightly, I will exit the trade. If I was using larger stakes I would prefer to drop a portion of my net stake back in to the market to give me a bit more breathing room to just sit on it and wait. To counter this I have tried trading the "noise" a little but I find then when I try to re-open a trade, I don't always get my bet matched which just ruins the cycle.

As per usual, I seem to have gone on a bit so I'll get to the point!

I'm in a position where I'll be able to place a bit more money in to betfair temporarily. Enough so I could probably work with £100 stakes maximum. I don't intend to do this straight away but I'd like a bit of advice on what to expect when upping stakes.

As far as deciding what stake to use. I figured that putting in roughly 1/3 - 1/2 of what is typically waiting on either side of the book (at a single price) would give me enough leeway to exit a trade as well as enter without causing a stir. Would I be right in doing this or should I play it safer? I typically take a price rather than offer one up when a trade goes against me as I find trying to get matched when the price is going in the wrong direction, on average, is counterproductive.

Using the above as an example. How much harder would you say it is increasing stakes from £2, up to £100? I realize this is a big jump and not one I intend to do straight away but I'd like some peoples opinion regardless. When I ask how much harder it is, I'm talking more about entering and exiting the market etc, not so much the psychological weight it carries when the trade goes against you or in your favor. I've traded with £100 stakes before, be it unsuccessfully (newbie error) and don't feel any different emotionally.

As a final question. I'm finding I'm getting about 1 losing race in 10. I spend a lot of time playing it safe and managing my risk and I don't tend to enter a trade unless I feel strongly about it. I feel that this level of "success" probably indicates I might be playing it a little too safe and could probably take a few more risks with larger rewards and obviously, more losing trades also. That being said, the high strike rate could be down to the tiny stakes I'm using!

Any advice much appreciated and also a big thank you to those that have helped me, or contributed to things I've read in past posts.

That's this months serious post out of the way anyway. Now I can go back to talking bollocks :D

All the best,

Tom
Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

Bloody hell, look at that size of that post... Congratulations to anyone that didn't just skim it :lol:
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LeTiss
Posts: 5489
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:04 pm

Two questions -

1) What stakes did you tend to use when your bank was £2000?

2) Were you a successful trader when the bank was £2000?
Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

Don't think I ever used more than 100's when my bank was 2k but I did use a lot of the bank while scalping (getting queue positions).

Was I profitable? Nope. But I hadn't got a Scrooby doo back then either.
iambic_pentameter
Posts: 450
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 1:24 pm

Hi Tom

At a similar stage of my journey to you.

My personal preference is to use 10% of my bank with a 10% stop loss - this is because I tend to focus on races where I think there will be a swing.

So, with a £50 bank, I would use £5 stakes and then a 10% stop loss of that £5 which is 50p. You could, of course, put £2.50 into the market and add to the position.

A big shift in my thinking happened when I stopped worrying about how much I was going to make. Instead, I focus on protecting my bank. I also see this as a long-term project - I cringe when I think back about wanting to make X per day by Y date ignoring the fact that I didn't even understand the difference between certain race types. :mrgreen:

The beauty of the above figures, is that it allows me to wrong a lot of times before wiping out, which at the stage of the trading journey is ideal.

No point in trading £50 stakes and above if you can't trade £2 stakes.

"One day at a time, one trade at a time"

Iambic
andygreen1965
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 5:32 pm

I have learned that protecting from losses is absolutely the key to winning. The second thing I have learned is to raise my stakes slowly and allow my confidence to grow in being able to read the markets, and not to chase losses. Psychology changes with risk, and by edging stakes higher rather than jumping up you reduce the risk of panic in your trading.
Bluesky
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:26 pm

A 90% win race is fantastic Trader Tom, I doubt you would be able to replicate this percentage with larger stakes. I think PW has a win rate of 80% and I would think that's higher than most pro traders who trade the horses pre off.

If you feel the same trading with £100 pounds as you do trading with £2 then that is fairly exceptional, most people find it much more difficult to think clearly once decent amounts of their hard earned are put at risk.

I'm not sure how many trades you need to make in order to have some figures you can rely on with regards to your win rate, but be careful if you don't have that many. I notice you said you had only traded 20 days of racing since using the £2 stakes and that you were very picky with the races you trade (this is a very good thing by the way).

This is a total guess but I would think you would need to have traded at least 500 markets to have any kind of confidence in your win rate (would appreciate any pros coming in on this and perhaps giving what they would consider a reasonable number of trades to base a win rate on).

What figure did you have in mind for the next stake value, I don't see much point in going from £2 to say £5 as they are too close to one another. If as you say the size of stake does not affect you psychologically then perhaps going up to £20 might be an idea. If you do as well at this level (over a reasonable number of trades) as you have done at £2, then the next step would probably be £50 stakes.

Anyway good luck with it and I hope you continue to have such terrific results.
Bluesky
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:26 pm

andygreen1965 wrote:I have learned that protecting from losses is absolutely the key to winning. The second thing I have learned is to raise my stakes slowly and allow my confidence to grow in being able to read the markets, and not to chase losses. Psychology changes with risk, and by edging stakes higher rather than jumping up you reduce the risk of panic in your trading.
This has got to be one of the best paragraphs I have read on this or any other trading forum, thanks for posting it.
Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

iambic_pentameter wrote:Hi Tom

At a similar stage of my journey to you.

My personal preference is to use 10% of my bank with a 10% stop loss - this is because I tend to focus on races where I think there will be a swing.

So, with a £50 bank, I would use £5 stakes and then a 10% stop loss of that £5 which is 50p. You could, of course, put £2.50 into the market and add to the position.

A big shift in my thinking happened when I stopped worrying about how much I was going to make. Instead, I focus on protecting my bank. I also see this as a long-term project - I cringe when I think back about wanting to make X per day by Y date ignoring the fact that I didn't even understand the difference between certain race types. :mrgreen:

The beauty of the above figures, is that it allows me to wrong a lot of times before wiping out, which at the stage of the trading journey is ideal.

No point in trading £50 stakes and above if you can't trade £2 stakes.

"One day at a time, one trade at a time"

Iambic
Personally I don't tend to have a specific figure where I think "right, that's enough loss, I'm out". I always weigh my loss vs expected reward depending on how volatile the market is. If I think it's broken outside of it's usual range that it fluctuates I will get out or if I think something has changed or there was something I maybe didn't pay enough attention to I will get out, usually for a small profit or a scratch.

Everyone has different methods and there's no "one size fits all" way of doing things. I think self awareness and improvement is a key factor in improving your trading, as well as a shit tonne of screen time :D
Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

Bluesky wrote:A 90% win race is fantastic Trader Tom, I doubt you would be able to replicate this percentage with larger stakes. I think PW has a win rate of 80% and I would think that's higher than most pro traders who trade the horses pre off.

If you feel the same trading with £100 pounds as you do trading with £2 then that is fairly exceptional, most people find it much more difficult to think clearly once decent amounts of their hard earned are put at risk.

I'm not sure how many trades you need to make in order to have some figures you can rely on with regards to your win rate, but be careful if you don't have that many. I notice you said you had only traded 20 days of racing since using the £2 stakes and that you were very picky with the races you trade (this is a very good thing by the way).

This is a total guess but I would think you would need to have traded at least 500 markets to have any kind of confidence in your win rate (would appreciate any pros coming in on this and perhaps giving what they would consider a reasonable number of trades to base a win rate on).

What figure did you have in mind for the next stake value, I don't see much point in going from £2 to say £5 as they are too close to one another. If as you say the size of stake does not affect you psychologically then perhaps going up to £20 might be an idea. If you do as well at this level (over a reasonable number of trades) as you have done at £2, then the next step would probably be £50 stakes.

Anyway good luck with it and I hope you continue to have such terrific results.
I've traded about 20 days since dropping to £2 stakes. I've also since done Peters masterclass (highly reccomended). I didn't mention though that I have been "pretend" trading most evenings on the days that I have missed. I record 2 screens throughout the day and watch them through in the evening. On races I would scalp (which isn't many) I tend to just skip through the race and see if the price moved much or had any big spikes but for any I'd expect to swing I will sit and watch it all in real time while pretending to open and close positions. This is boring but it's been useful as I can also go back and see why I was wrong (or right) about certain moves.

As for my strike rate. My winning losing races have been about 1 in 10 on average but my individual trades certainly aren't at a 90% strike rate. I will have winning and losing trades in any one market. I'd guess I'm somewhere around 65%/70% on whether my trade goes well or not. My losing trades are nearly always smaller than my winning ones though. I often play it safe by laying close to a crossover point to minimize my losses.

One thing I don't tend to do though is pick and choose which races to trade beforehand. I enter every market and judge it individually. There's been "quality" races I've thought would be great and I've not touched them as well as poor quality races I've been comfortable and done well in. I do think I could trade more aggressively though but for now, profit is profit!

Staking! I don't intend on trading 100's just yet. I'm going to switch to 10's for a few days and then maybe 20's. It will just be nice to be able to scale out my position a little bit and trade with a bit more normality. I asked about 100's as that's where I would like to be in the future and didn't think it was worth opening a thread every time I decided to up stakes haha.

Like I said, I'd traded 100's before but that was just me being cocky. When I first started I had a good couple of days and upped stakes far too quickly. I can't remember whether it was specifically because I was using larger stakes that trading became more difficult or not. It was more likely that I was just lucky beforehand and now I was losing because I legitimately didn't have a clue what I was doing. It had never held any more weight on me mentally when using larger stakes as the upside/downside still isn't massive with £100 stakes. I've no idea if it would be different using 500's or not (I'd imagine it would be).

Like I said, while I obviously do have faults with my psychology (like everyone really) I don't feel like I have any glaringly obvious ones. Any that I did have were quickly sorted. I don't know if part of this is because I've never been a gambler. The odd mistakes I do make are down to me just being a muppet and not paying attention I got caught in play accidentally yesterday which wouldn't have happened if I was paying attention. I think something is wrong with my clock because several times it was 10 seconds before post time when it went in play.

Thanks for the input folks!
Bluesky
Posts: 420
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:26 pm

Thanks for that really comprehensive answer Tom it's much appreciated, I have been thinking about doing some recording of both races I do and do not trade, sounds like although it's boring it is a really good learning experience. I shall sort it out in the next day or two.
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Dallas
Posts: 23589
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:57 pm

Trader_Tom wrote: I got caught in play accidentally yesterday which wouldn't have happened if I was paying attention. I think something is wrong with my clock because several times it was 10 seconds before post time when it went in play.
The Bet Angel timer is linked to your PC clock so make sure this is as accurate as possible and being syncd correctly.
Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

Dallas wrote:
Trader_Tom wrote: I got caught in play accidentally yesterday which wouldn't have happened if I was paying attention. I think something is wrong with my clock because several times it was 10 seconds before post time when it went in play.
The Bet Angel timer is linked to your PC clock so make sure this is as accurate as possible and being syncd correctly.
Cheers mate! I'll take a look at it now...

https://youtu.be/oL7PSlUuWPs
Trader_Tom
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:51 pm

Bluesky wrote:Thanks for that really comprehensive answer Tom it's much appreciated, I have been thinking about doing some recording of both races I do and do not trade, sounds like although it's boring it is a really good learning experience. I shall sort it out in the next day or two.
Give me a shout if you like. It took me a bit of trial and error but I've got it sussed now : )
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ruthlessimon
Posts: 2155
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:54 pm

65%+ strike rate, winners bigger than losers (good risk/reward) - sounds like you've got nothing to worry about mate. you're part of the 91% congratz! ;)

however, there definitely becomes a point when raising stakes quickly will cause an effect on your psyche. this is where you need absolute faith in your methods/trade plan (having stacks of previous market data will massively help with this). the moment you take a loss/a few losses on big stakes you mustn't drop the stakes too vigorously, or it will really damage your p&l. risking only 1% of your bank per market is a good rule of thumb - as you lose your stakes will gradually decrease (but your bank is protected) & as you win more, your stakes gradually rise.

as the others have said - good money management (bank protection) is the no. 1! at the end of the day the best traders, are the ones who are the best risk managers.

"if you want to be here for the good days, you need to be here for all days!"
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