Today I used an Excel sheet to submit Lay bets (with Offsetting, Stops and Greening) into the In-Play markets to test the efficiency of the markets (and indeed Bet Angels ability to manage the bets). A few interesting things happened along the way and they may be of interest to some readers.
I submitted 68 Lays (and 52 Backs) into the 20 races available (March 15) [ignoring the first race] and came out with a profit of 1.3% (don’t laugh, its actually good) on a turnover of just over £1500.
There are 3 items of interest that were highlighted:
1. How Stop Losses work in running
2. With Greening
3. Offsetting
We tend to assume that Stops will work but “in-running” there is a significant problem that plays havoc with this simple and tidy process. The reason Stops will not work well in-running is because the odds are moving at a very rapid rate and often hit a figure “lower” than the Stop preset, rendering the Stop useless. For example if we Layed at 3’s, presetting the Excel bet such that it would Stop out at 2’s, it is often the case that by the time the triggered Stop is actually submitted (bearing in mind the in-running bet submission delay), the odds may already be at 1.6 before the Stop Loss Back bet hits the market. In this instance your Back bet at 2’s will have already missed the boat. Don’t expect Bet Angel to know that the odds are already below your planned Stop; instead think about setting the “Stop” and the “Place-Stop” at different values to allow for the time delay.
The “With Greening” function in running doesn’t actually work, so all your Lay/Back profit stays on the single horse unless you manually intervene and Green Up. So much for complete Excel automation!
Offsetting caused the biggest problem throughout the day and whilst I am still perusing the VT’s I made of every race, the BA Logs and the Betfair History, I can confirm that there is definitely a problem with Offsets in running. In fact, the main reason for doing a thorough trial today was that I had noticed before that my log was missing some bets over the past week.
In the 20 races where between 1 and 5 lays (with offsets) per race were submitted, 12 races failed to submit 1 or more Offset Back bets. In fact, of the 68 total lay bets with offsets (all the same), Bet Angel failed to submit a total of 16 Back bets (although it did correctly submit the other 52).
I have the complete Logs from BA and Betfair along with the videos for each of these omissions but so far I can see no common themes. I have checked the relative horses positions and double-checked the Excel code, as well as ensuring that the API has been running at a decent speed. Of course a couple of the Back Offsets may not have had time to make the market before the end of the race but all the others should have been initiated, some just several seconds into the race (all today’s races were over 2miles or more). The random nature of the omissions indicates a software problem.
If I discover any other anomalies I will post in this thread, but in the meantime using Excel to submit Offset bets in running should be treated with caution.
A foray into the world of Excel In-Running
Following yesterdays post, I again submitted 68 Lays in-running into 20 of today's races. Today was a 0.09% loss on turnover of £1790, so the efficiency of the in-running markets is quite remarkable.
The reason I quote the profit/turnover is simply to highlight the fact that my "edge" is being wiped out because only 49 of the above Offset Lay bets managed to submit the appropriate Back bet. Yesterday 16 of the 68 bets submitted failed, whilst today 19 of the Offsets failed to work properly.
All the bets were submitted at the start of in-play using identical Excel code to submit the bets.
Having spent some time examining the BA logs and VT's of the races, I am still at a loss to explain why some Offset lay bets will fire the appropriate Back bet, whilst others randomly "forget" to submit the Back side of the Offset.
Is anyone else having this problem?
The reason I quote the profit/turnover is simply to highlight the fact that my "edge" is being wiped out because only 49 of the above Offset Lay bets managed to submit the appropriate Back bet. Yesterday 16 of the 68 bets submitted failed, whilst today 19 of the Offsets failed to work properly.
All the bets were submitted at the start of in-play using identical Excel code to submit the bets.
Having spent some time examining the BA logs and VT's of the races, I am still at a loss to explain why some Offset lay bets will fire the appropriate Back bet, whilst others randomly "forget" to submit the Back side of the Offset.
Is anyone else having this problem?
The silence is golden ,and that should give you the answer,any post about excel and formulars is a very very grey matter thats why when you look at previous post they don't excist you will get a reply straight away asking about the trival aspect's of excel but try getting answer's to problem like your having or formulas you got no chance it's not just betangle but all of it's competitor's, so frustrating hope you solve your problem good luck but you not alone
Hi James, We hadn't seen this thread till somebody PM'd us. Please drop a note to support and they can do a similar test and find out if there is a problem. If you have issues it's always best contacting support immediately as they can try and replicate it. We haven't seen similar reports before. There are some fairly simple tests that can be run which will indentify what the issue is.
With the in-running delay I think any automated strategy, especially one that relies on stop losses is going to be very tricky to implement safely. Also bear in mind a filled priced in-play with a delay may be very different to the requested price, the offset may be different and the with greening with only apply to the price it was trying to fill at not the price at which it actually fills. It's a minefield.
With the in-running delay I think any automated strategy, especially one that relies on stop losses is going to be very tricky to implement safely. Also bear in mind a filled priced in-play with a delay may be very different to the requested price, the offset may be different and the with greening with only apply to the price it was trying to fill at not the price at which it actually fills. It's a minefield.
HiBet Angel wrote:Hi James, We hadn't seen this thread till somebody PM'd us. Please drop a note to support and they can do a similar test and find out if there is a problem. If you have issues it's always best contacting support immediately as they can try and replicate it. We haven't seen similar reports before. There are some fairly simple tests that can be run which will indentify what the issue is.
With the in-running delay I think any automated strategy, especially one that relies on stop losses is going to be very tricky to implement safely.
I've had similar problems in the past where the correct back stake hasnt been calculated correctly as part of an offset..When I looked into it, the reason was that the corresponding back bet was less than £2...
e.g..lay £5 at 2, try and green up by backing at say 100
The only way around this is to increase the lay stake...so that the back bet will be above £2...Not sure if this applies to this current problem, but it might ??
..and to answer Kingo...sometimes it can cost a fair bit to develop a strategy..(using the senario above for example)...so people are reluctant to explain exactly what they are doing when they find one that works. Thats understandable.
People are always willing to help others, but using excel with BA does require a fairly good understanding of excel to be honest. Without it it would be like playing russian roulette..
Once the spreadsheet is built. It will do EXACTLY what you have told it to do..if you instruct to place a £10 lay at the current lay price and it is 990...then it will do it without thinking. There is no differentiation or emotion. Yes its a powerful tool..but it can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
You have to start off slowly using minimum stakes and just leave a small amount of money in your account whilst testing and building you skill set..
regards
Peter
Hey guys,
Just an update after some detailed research. The In-running world of odds detection is like chasing a wayward rabbit with the odds randomly jumping from say 4's to 19's and back to 5's all in the blink of an eye. Sometimes it simply isnt detected by Excel because there is a delay before Excel catches up with live odds in running. The result is that offset bets may be unfilled due to the minimum bet limitation (the offset stake is calculated using odds that you maybe cannot see appearing). One important note for Excel users is that using condition A = X is more likely to work correctly by replacing it by A > X-1.
In any case, many thanks to BA support for being helpful during testing and a big heads up to Tony (from Support) for his prompt replies. The new individual functions (Green, Cancel etc), as well as the Global functions have allowed me to achieve what I set out to do. No, I don't have perfection yet but with Supports help have managed to reach a green (or greenable) situation in over 87% of races.
Someone might want to look at the Greening function in-running though, as it is often the case that the green amount is negative despite a green amount on every runner. Misleadingly, the opposite is also very often true.
Just an update after some detailed research. The In-running world of odds detection is like chasing a wayward rabbit with the odds randomly jumping from say 4's to 19's and back to 5's all in the blink of an eye. Sometimes it simply isnt detected by Excel because there is a delay before Excel catches up with live odds in running. The result is that offset bets may be unfilled due to the minimum bet limitation (the offset stake is calculated using odds that you maybe cannot see appearing). One important note for Excel users is that using condition A = X is more likely to work correctly by replacing it by A > X-1.
In any case, many thanks to BA support for being helpful during testing and a big heads up to Tony (from Support) for his prompt replies. The new individual functions (Green, Cancel etc), as well as the Global functions have allowed me to achieve what I set out to do. No, I don't have perfection yet but with Supports help have managed to reach a green (or greenable) situation in over 87% of races.
Someone might want to look at the Greening function in-running though, as it is often the case that the green amount is negative despite a green amount on every runner. Misleadingly, the opposite is also very often true.