Pre off Trading.. am I doing it right?

[Fugazi]

I appreciate watching someone else's ladder is incredibly dull, especially the poor quality I have recorded. However, I have recently returned to manual pre off trading having given up on this method very early on. I was just hoping for some insight as to whether I'm getting it wrong. This is something I want to master so I can make some automations.

Video breakdown:

4 Ladders viewed - I find this a manageable amount. Sure, sometimes we get horses steaming / drifting at the back of the book but I feel ok just accepting I'll occasionally have losses not monitoring this.

0 mins - 2 mins: Not much movement. Decided to make a few small scalps, though perhaps should not have with the wide range of prices traded in the orange indicators.

1 min 50 approx - Accidental green up. Must have an automation running on my VPS.

2mins - 5 mins. Significant price movements. If one ladder goes up by say 6 ticks, I may look to trade a range of around 3 ticks on the adjacent ladder (s). My thinking is that if one changes by 6 ticks, the price change may be spread amongst a couple of other ladders.

Finished trading +0.06 in the end, ladders started to converge back to the middle so just hit green up with about 2 mins left. Free video recording timed out at 5 mins and didn't want to bore everyone further.

Video: https://youtu.be/UIbppHik20g

[greenmark]

I appreciate watching someone else's ladder is incredibly dull, especially the poor quality I have recorded. However, I have recently returned to manual pre off trading having given up on this method very early on. I was just hoping for some insight as to whether I'm getting it wrong. This is something I want to master so I can make some automations.

Video breakdown:

4 Ladders viewed - I find this a manageable amount. Sure, sometimes we get horses steaming / drifting at the back of the book but I feel ok just accepting I'll occasionally have losses not monitoring this.

0 mins - 2 mins: Not much movement. Decided to make a few small scalps, though perhaps should not have with the wide range of prices traded in the orange indicators.

1 min 50 approx - Accidental green up. Must have an automation running on my VPS.

2mins - 5 mins. Significant price movements. If one ladder goes up by say 6 ticks, I may look to trade a range of around 3 ticks on the adjacent ladder (s). My thinking is that if one changes by 6 ticks, the price change may be spread amongst a couple of other ladders.

Finished trading +0.06 in the end, ladders started to converge back to the middle so just hit green up with about 2 mins left. Free video recording timed out at 5 mins and didn't want to bore everyone further.

Video: https://youtu.be/UIbppHik20g

If you lose money, you're getting it wrong. You don't need to lose real money. You can paper trade, keep records and if you find a profitable strategy, cash in.

[Fugazi]

I appreciate watching someone else's ladder is incredibly dull, especially the poor quality I have recorded. However, I have recently returned to manual pre off trading having given up on this method very early on. I was just hoping for some insight as to whether I'm getting it wrong. This is something I want to master so I can make some automations.

Video breakdown:

4 Ladders viewed - I find this a manageable amount. Sure, sometimes we get horses steaming / drifting at the back of the book but I feel ok just accepting I'll occasionally have losses not monitoring this.

0 mins - 2 mins: Not much movement. Decided to make a few small scalps, though perhaps should not have with the wide range of prices traded in the orange indicators.

1 min 50 approx - Accidental green up. Must have an automation running on my VPS.

2mins - 5 mins. Significant price movements. If one ladder goes up by say 6 ticks, I may look to trade a range of around 3 ticks on the adjacent ladder (s). My thinking is that if one changes by 6 ticks, the price change may be spread amongst a couple of other ladders.

Finished trading +0.06 in the end, ladders started to converge back to the middle so just hit green up with about 2 mins left. Free video recording timed out at 5 mins and didn't want to bore everyone further.

Video: https://youtu.be/UIbppHik20g

If you lose money, you're getting it wrong. You don't need to lose real money. You can paper trade, keep records and if you find a profitable strategy, cash in.

5 races traded, +0.15 total.

I think I just wanted to see if there are some glaring errors in my thinking. As I've gone down this road before to find I've wasted a lot of time to realise I'm not profitable long run despite some initial profit in a tiny sample. I'm not looking for ''do this to profit'' but just some feedback such as: Scalping at 0 mins - 2mins was dumb. Too volatile.

[jimibt]

I'm not looking for ''do this to profit'' but just some feedback such as: Scalping at 0 mins - 2mins was dumb. Too volatile.

on returning to pre trading after a long absence, all i can say is that I'm fashioning my approach 100% on the cut over from 2 mins thro to 1 minute. My observations (and they are still early on) are that a shed load of bots get involved around the 2 minute mark. With enough data (I'm collecting from 5 mins out to start with), I'm almost certain that I'll begin to identify a fingerprint that occurs which may indicate events to follow. One thing for sure is that I wouldn't be surprised if the preceding minutes up to 2 minute have little or no bearing on what these bots intentions are.

wip and happy to share any observations...

[Fugazi]

I'm not looking for ''do this to profit'' but just some feedback such as: Scalping at 0 mins - 2mins was dumb. Too volatile.

on returning to pre trading after a long absence, all i can say is that I'm fashioning my approach 100% on the cut over from 2 mins thro to 1 minute. My observations (and they are still early on) are that a shed load of bots get involved around the 2 minute mark. With enough data (I'm collecting from 5 mins out to start with), I'm almost certain that I'll begin to identify a fingerprint that occurs which may indicate events to follow. One thing for sure is that I wouldn't be surprised if the preceding minutes up to 2 minute have little or no bearing on what these bots intentions are.

wip and happy to share any observations...

Interesting, i'll have a go manually in that timeframe and see what I find. I see a lot of bots in greyhounds that can be manipulated / abused , probably be a bit harder for me to spot on horse markets as there is a lot more activity going on

How come you have returned ?

[jimibt]

How come you have returned ?

two reasons mainly:

1. my work on forex is reaching a refinement level that no longer requires a 24/7 hands on touch, so needed something else to keep me interested
2. I just happened to review the BA api and discovered that I could leverage this exposed api to create strategies in c# that I could never have created in BA alone. Coming from the other side of the coin, the previous BF api strategies that i'd created suffered from having a home made UI/bet placement engine which made it pretty unreliable. Using this mix 'n match approach allows me to focus on the implementation details of my strategies, safe in the knowledge that the BA engine will always be using the latest/greatest approaches when interfacing with the market(s).

In essence, my (undiagnosed!! ) adhd kicked in when a member on here asked me to do a quick appraisal of the BA api. On reviewing it, I realised that I'd be able to save native BA streamed data for any given event and would then be able to replay it thro my c# strategies (using the same BA structures). This was the missing puzzle piece that pushed me away from BA 3-4 years back. Now that I can do this, I have a completely renewed interest in pre race as i can now run the saved markets thro any c# strategy, in parallel and test 1000's of different parameter values to see which ones produce the best outcome. Using an 80/20 rule on the data, i can be certain that my strategy is not data fitted.

I could go on, but I think you get the gist.

[Fugazi]

How come you have returned ?

two reasons mainly:

1. my work on forex is reaching a refinement level that no longer requires a 24/7 hands on touch, so needed something else to keep me interested
2. I just happened to review the BA api and discovered that I could leverage this exposed api to create strategies in c# that I could never have created in BA alone. Coming from the other side of the coin, the previous BF api strategies that i'd created suffered from having a home made UI/bet placement engine which made it pretty unreliable. Using this mix 'n match approach allows me to focus on the implementation details of my strategies, safe in the knowledge that the BA engine will always be using the latest/greatest approaches when interfacing with the market(s).

In essence, my (undiagnosed!! ) adhd kicked in when a member on here asked me to do a quick appraisal of the BA api. On reviewing it, I realised that I'd be able to save native BA streamed data for any given event and would then be able to replay it thro my c# strategies (using the same BA structures). This was the missing puzzle piece that pushed me away from BA 3-4 years back. Now that I can do this, I have a completely renewed interest in pre race as i can now run the saved markets thro any c# strategy, in parallel and test 1000's of different parameter values to see which ones produce the best outcome. Using an 80/20 rule on the data, i can be certain that my strategy is not data fitted.

I could go on, but I think you get the gist.

Ah, so in a nutshell with an API you can collect a lot more data / data points than using the store value function.. and therefore create working automations much easier , right?

Just began a python course a few weeks back, going take me a long time to catch up

[The Silk Run]

Personally, when testing stratergies I use LIVE mode, small stakes to get a better feel for the nuances !!! That's what the Devs do ... NO Practice, or SIM mode.

TRY & avoid Universal timings, and staking [rounding] where Manual, and Automatic activity is generally the norm. For example: 113 seconds, NOT 120 seconds. 0.13p NOT 0.20p.

These small tweaks, amongst others have worked for me ...

But anyway. GOOD LUCK with all your future endeavors ...

Minnie LAI

[jimibt]

Ah, so in a nutshell with an API you can collect a lot more data / data points than using the store value function.. and therefore create working automations much easier , right?

Just began a python course a few weeks back, going take me a long time to catch up

I will try to express it with an image of the data that's getting saved per single streamed macro (market item/event ) - annotations explained below image:

Screenshot 2024-03-24 195233.png

So, items labelled 1&S with the purple/blue line on left and right hand screen are a single streamed event item for a runner (micro event). (note the Volume change between each macro event, in the case highlighted from event #1 to #2 (in light blue) a mere £5

Each selection in the selections [Array] (*) follows the same format. Item 2 is basically the next streamed macro event (i.e. 250 ms after event #1). This macro event also contains all the selections with the same level of detail. Items 3,4,5,etc are the continuation streamed macro items that follow after item #2 - i.e. the sequential streamed market items that follow the same pattern.

A typical market, where I'm pulling from 5 minutes out, produces 1,200 macro items (each containing all [micro] selections i.e. back/lay data as shown). My plan is to examine this bland data in a variety of implementations and infer the /best strategy to employ. Watch this space

If i can't make something out of this, then I'll gracefully bow back out

[hecojef928]

In essence, my (undiagnosed!! ) adhd kicked in

Apologies for veering off-topic, Fugazi. Jimi, I'm currently in the waiting phase, and I strongly feel that dealing with undiagnosed ADHD has greatly impeded my progress in life and trading over the years. If you do consider yourself as having ADHD, I would be really interested to know your thoughts.

[jimibt]

In essence, my (undiagnosed!! ) adhd kicked in

Apologies for veering off-topic, Fugazi. Jimi, I'm currently in the waiting phase, and I strongly feel that dealing with undiagnosed ADHD has greatly impeded my progress in life and trading over the years. If you do consider yourself as having ADHD, I would be really interested to know your thoughts.

for me, it's a mix of either intense focus to the exclusion of all else, or the complete opposite - lack of focus and an inability to settle down to the task at hand. I have quite a number of friends/associates that suffer similarly. As I said, mine is undiagnosed but it fits the pattern from what I've read. It's an equal curse and gift at the same time, just a matter of knowing how to break either end of the cycle (the obsessiveness or the disconnectedness).

Hope it works out for you, recognising it is probably the 1st step.

[hecojef928]

for me, it's a mix of either intense focus to the exclusion of all else, or the complete opposite - lack of focus and an inability to settle down to the task at hand. I have quite a number of friends/associates that suffer similarly. As I said, mine is undiagnosed but it fits the pattern from what I've read. It's an equal curse and gift at the same time, just a matter of knowing how to break either end of the cycle (the obsessiveness or the disconnectedness).

Hope it works out for you, recognising it is probably the 1st step.

I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone. One moment, I'm laser-focused, but then my thoughts scatter in all directions. It's like trying to hold onto sand. Even when I manage to hone in on my trading, my thoughts race ahead of me—I'm pacing, restless, unable to settle; it's every trader's worst nightmare.

Thankfully, automation has brought some much-needed structure to my trading routine. Yet, despite its assistance, the daily grind of constructing, adhering to, and monitoring trading strategies long-term remains challenging.

I'm committed to working with my mind, not against it. Finding ways to manage distractions and maintain discipline is an ongoing journey. With the right diagnosis and treatment, I'm hopeful that brighter days lie ahead, especially as I pursue something I'm truly passionate about. Hopefully you can too.

[sionascaig]

I'm committed to working with my mind, not against it. Finding ways to manage distractions and maintain discipline is an ongoing journey. With the right diagnosis and treatment, I'm hopeful that brighter days lie ahead, especially as I pursue something I'm truly passionate about. Hopefully you can too.

Some good articles on this site re ADHD...

https://theconversation.com/adhd-in-adu ... sed-162824

97% of those diagnosed have issues getting medication atm..

One of my son's has just been diagnosed & I would have never guessed - maybe quite a spectrum out there.

[conduirez]

Ah, so in a nutshell with an API you can collect a lot more data / data points than using the store value function.. and therefore create working automations much easier , right?

Just began a python course a few weeks back, going take me a long time to catch up

I will try to express it with an image of the data that's getting saved per single streamed macro (market item/event ) - annotations explained below image:


Screenshot 2024-03-24 195233.png


So, items labelled 1&S with the purple/blue line on left and right hand screen are a single streamed event item for a runner (micro event). (note the Volume change between each macro event, in the case highlighted from event #1 to #2 (in light blue) a mere £5

Each selection in the selections [Array] (*) follows the same format. Item 2 is basically the next streamed macro event (i.e. 250 ms after event #1). This macro event also contains all the selections with the same level of detail. Items 3,4,5,etc are the continuation streamed macro items that follow after item #2 - i.e. the sequential streamed market items that follow the same pattern.

A typical market, where I'm pulling from 5 minutes out, produces 1,200 macro items (each containing all [micro] selections i.e. back/lay data as shown). My plan is to examine this bland data in a variety of implementations and infer the /best strategy to employ. Watch this space

If i can't make something out of this, then I'll gracefully bow back out

Jimibt

Great breakdown as usual

Fugazi,

I am at the moment writing some code in C# to move my operation over to Bet Angel API, following a discussion on the forum a few days ago. I am following Jimibt posts closely as he works with C#, I just write code as a amateur, so Jimibt's input is of the utmost importance to me.

Learning Python first is probably the best way to go, but after you learn Python, you would have learned the basics of programming variables, conditional statements, loops, Classes etc, so don't stop, move on quickly to C# as me and Jimibt will be around to help you. C# can run up to 10 times faster than Python code execution.

[hecojef928]

I'm committed to working with my mind, not against it. Finding ways to manage distractions and maintain discipline is an ongoing journey. With the right diagnosis and treatment, I'm hopeful that brighter days lie ahead, especially as I pursue something I'm truly passionate about. Hopefully you can too.

Some good articles on this site re ADHD...

https://theconversation.com/adhd-in-adu ... sed-162824

97% of those diagnosed have issues getting medication atm..

One of my son's has just been diagnosed & I would have never guessed - maybe quite a spectrum out there.

Thanks, I'll definitely give them a look.

I've realised how the signs of ADHD were present in my younger years, yet an official diagnosis remained elusive. It's made me wonder how different things might have been with earlier clarity. Despite the challenges, and still being relatively young, I'm now on track to receive a diagnosis within the next 8-10 weeks. However, as you mentioned, the process of obtaining medication may take longer.

It's been quite a journey, and it's disheartening to think about others facing similar struggles, especially in their education/careers. Wishing all the best to your son, and I'm hopeful that amidst the challenges, there are still positives to be found.

Perhaps this topic deserves its own thread. Sorry Fugazi!