Here's my dilemma...
My son has recently lost his job and really does not want to go back to doing what he was (Electrician), he hates it and cant stand the thought of doing it until he is 65...can relate to that
Ideally long term - he would like to do some form of Ski qualification, he is a good skier and is in his element whilst he is there.
He knows I trade as and when I can and he knows that I make money at it..although he doesnt know just how much. When I think about the number of hours and effort I have put into this it doesnt bear thinking about..but I'm reaping the benefits now as I make more money from this than I do my job.
He recently asked me if I could teach him. Thats the dilemma. I am fairly confident that I could teach him, but only if he puts in 101% as I do.
I told him that if he were to work hard at this he could have a good lifestyle. He could go to the gym every morning, trade during the day...Still meet his mates at night and maybe take January off each year to Ski...
My questions to anyone who may have a view is:-
- Would you teach a family member?
- Is Betfair a 'Career' for a young person?
- What would you do if if was your son?
Sorry It's almost like an exam question...but Discuss!
Regards
Peter
PS If anyone has done anything similar, would be interested in how you went about goal setting and real experience etc. I have some experience of managing teams doing Job Plans and Reviews etc..but always willing to learn - Thanks
Would you teach your Son to trade ?
Hi Peter
Personally I would help him finance his Ski Qualifications.
He would be happy with that wouldn't he and you would not have the pressure of trying to teach him the same skills and disciplines that you have had to teach yourself.
If you took him under your wing as far as trading goes you would make yourself responsible,not only your own Houshold,but his too and that has a habit of destroying relationships.
Just my tuppence worth.
Dobbin
Personally I would help him finance his Ski Qualifications.
He would be happy with that wouldn't he and you would not have the pressure of trying to teach him the same skills and disciplines that you have had to teach yourself.
If you took him under your wing as far as trading goes you would make yourself responsible,not only your own Houshold,but his too and that has a habit of destroying relationships.
Just my tuppence worth.
Dobbin
I would echo what Dobbin said. Unless he is straining at the leish and is completely desperate to learn trading because it is something that he really wants to do then I think it could probably cause more harm than good in terms of putting a strain on your relationship. Even if your son is intelligent and motivated there's a strong possibility that it wont suit him (remember the number of people who walked out of the million dollar traders program?) and the isolation part of it is also an issue.
I certainly don't think you can call betfair a 'career' when there's so much uncertainty surrounding it, particularly with racing, but in any case there's no guarantee that in a couple of years betfair may look completely different. You see the cross matching being introduced yesterday, what's to say they wont introduce new things that completely change the markets in the future?
I certainly don't think you can call betfair a 'career' when there's so much uncertainty surrounding it, particularly with racing, but in any case there's no guarantee that in a couple of years betfair may look completely different. You see the cross matching being introduced yesterday, what's to say they wont introduce new things that completely change the markets in the future?
Hi Peter
I would start by asking your son why he hates working an an electrician.
Firstly, because it may be that he dislikes it not because of the nature of the work, but because of the thoughts he has about it. Perhaps with a more positive attitude, he might learn to enjoy his work.
I've experienced this myself. I've previously worked in telesales. There were times when it dragged, but also times when a day of cold calling could fly by. The difference was down to attitude. Sometimes I would I spend all day thinking 'This boring rubbish is beneath me!' and getting wound up my office politics. But when I just focused on the job at hand, and kept pushing myself, the day could fly by!
Secondly, you might be able to work out whether he'd enjoy being a trader. If there's a reason why it wouldn't be for him - at least with his current outlook - it would be better to find that out now.
But that aside, if I were you, I'd teach him. If it doesn't work out, you can put it down to experience, and no harm will be done. And if it does, he could one day end up trading in the City. Also, it would massively impress a future employer if he could say 'There were no suitable opportunities out there, so I made my own opportunity!'. That kind of dynamic, 'can do, will do' attitude is all too rare in this country!
But I'd really stress the psychological side of trading. As a young man, spiritual development probably isn't high on his list of priorities. And let's face it, most people are terrified of changing and becoming someone else. But I would say that his success or failure will hinge on this side of his trading.
Good luck!
Jeff
I would start by asking your son why he hates working an an electrician.
Firstly, because it may be that he dislikes it not because of the nature of the work, but because of the thoughts he has about it. Perhaps with a more positive attitude, he might learn to enjoy his work.
I've experienced this myself. I've previously worked in telesales. There were times when it dragged, but also times when a day of cold calling could fly by. The difference was down to attitude. Sometimes I would I spend all day thinking 'This boring rubbish is beneath me!' and getting wound up my office politics. But when I just focused on the job at hand, and kept pushing myself, the day could fly by!
Secondly, you might be able to work out whether he'd enjoy being a trader. If there's a reason why it wouldn't be for him - at least with his current outlook - it would be better to find that out now.
But that aside, if I were you, I'd teach him. If it doesn't work out, you can put it down to experience, and no harm will be done. And if it does, he could one day end up trading in the City. Also, it would massively impress a future employer if he could say 'There were no suitable opportunities out there, so I made my own opportunity!'. That kind of dynamic, 'can do, will do' attitude is all too rare in this country!
But I'd really stress the psychological side of trading. As a young man, spiritual development probably isn't high on his list of priorities. And let's face it, most people are terrified of changing and becoming someone else. But I would say that his success or failure will hinge on this side of his trading.
Good luck!
Jeff
PeterLe wrote:
My son has recently lost his job and really does not want to go back to doing what he was (Electrician), he hates it and cant stand the thought of doing it until he is 65...can relate to that
He recently asked me if I could teach him [to trade].
I can't give much advice to the father however as a 'young person' I would say that betfair is not a career for a young person. I think as others have mentioned there is too much uncertainty in the longer term, 5-10 years to invest a great deal of time in trading for the money. If your son wished to do it while working, enjoyed it and managed to become profitable excellent however I feel that similar to me he may be interested in making money from trading rather than trading itself.PeterLe wrote:Here's my dilemma...
- Is Betfair a 'Career' for a young person?
I am a profitable on betfair [though I am sure it is pocket money to some on here] however I very much see it as a means of making some extra money and allowing me to complete uni, do work experience unpaid etc... rather than as a career.
Hi Lewismbet
There are something like 10,000 races a year. Let's say you got to the point were you could make, on average, a fiver a race. Wouldn't you think it was time for a career break?
After all, even if, in five years' time, it's no longer possible to trade on Betfair due to changes in legislation, you will have skills you could take to a hedge fund. The technical skills needed in the financial markets may be different (although there are lots of similarities IMHO), but the required psychological attributes are the same.
I'm not saying Peter's son will necessarily succeed. Many are called and few are chosen. But if I were in Peter's shoes, I'd think 'Let's give it a whirl! What's the worst that can happen?'.
BTW, I know a Forex trader who taught his son to trade. This is from an email he once sent me:
'Seven years ago I taught my eldest son to trade (he was 13 at the time) As he had no preconceived ideas about trading, so I had a relatively easy time. His only impression of trading was the nice houses, cars and holidays that were bought from the job I had by sitting in front of a few computer screens for a few hours each day.
I insisted he paper traded for 6 months, and in that time he saved £400 to put into a spreadbetting account (in my name obviously) Once he started trading with real money (at £1 per pip) he was trading consistently as he had already had over 200 trades under his belt. He also had 2 part-time jobs, so he did not need to earn ANY money from trading, to him it was all an experiment and if he lost it all it would not matter. As his last 100 or so paper trades were executed faultlessly he did not think of losing as an option, so there was no fear or greed.
Seven years on, and he still trades once or twice a week (he is too busy to do it full-time) and he has still never touched any of the money in his account (he has had his own account for the past 2 years!!) so he is in the lucky position that he does not have to get a job when he leaves Uni next June – all because he did it properly in the beginning. When I watch him trade now, he executes trades like a 60 yr old veteran.'
Jeff
There are something like 10,000 races a year. Let's say you got to the point were you could make, on average, a fiver a race. Wouldn't you think it was time for a career break?
After all, even if, in five years' time, it's no longer possible to trade on Betfair due to changes in legislation, you will have skills you could take to a hedge fund. The technical skills needed in the financial markets may be different (although there are lots of similarities IMHO), but the required psychological attributes are the same.
I'm not saying Peter's son will necessarily succeed. Many are called and few are chosen. But if I were in Peter's shoes, I'd think 'Let's give it a whirl! What's the worst that can happen?'.
BTW, I know a Forex trader who taught his son to trade. This is from an email he once sent me:
'Seven years ago I taught my eldest son to trade (he was 13 at the time) As he had no preconceived ideas about trading, so I had a relatively easy time. His only impression of trading was the nice houses, cars and holidays that were bought from the job I had by sitting in front of a few computer screens for a few hours each day.
I insisted he paper traded for 6 months, and in that time he saved £400 to put into a spreadbetting account (in my name obviously) Once he started trading with real money (at £1 per pip) he was trading consistently as he had already had over 200 trades under his belt. He also had 2 part-time jobs, so he did not need to earn ANY money from trading, to him it was all an experiment and if he lost it all it would not matter. As his last 100 or so paper trades were executed faultlessly he did not think of losing as an option, so there was no fear or greed.
Seven years on, and he still trades once or twice a week (he is too busy to do it full-time) and he has still never touched any of the money in his account (he has had his own account for the past 2 years!!) so he is in the lucky position that he does not have to get a job when he leaves Uni next June – all because he did it properly in the beginning. When I watch him trade now, he executes trades like a 60 yr old veteran.'
Jeff
lewismbet wrote:I can't give much advice to the father however as a 'young person' I would say that betfair is not a career for a young person. I think as others have mentioned there is too much uncertainty in the longer term, 5-10 years to invest a great deal of time in trading for the money. If your son wished to do it while working, enjoyed it and managed to become profitable excellent however I feel that similar to me he may be interested in making money from trading rather than trading itself.PeterLe wrote:Here's my dilemma...
- Is Betfair a 'Career' for a young person?
I am a profitable on betfair [though I am sure it is pocket money to some on here] however I very much see it as a means of making some extra money and allowing me to complete uni, do work experience unpaid etc... rather than as a career.
-
oddstrader
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:55 pm
- Location: Surrey
[quote="PeterLe"]Here's my dilemma...
He recently asked me if I could teach him. Thats the dilemma. I am fairly confident that I could teach him, but only if he puts in 101% as I do.
Hi Peter
I have experienced a similar request but from a first cousin of mine who was made redundant, he asked if i would teach him and if he could sit with me for a few weeks to learn, i agreed as i didnt really have any other option damned if you do damned if you dont
The first day he arrived late which annoyed me and as the day progressed kept asking questions at crucial times in my own trading which affected my results as the day went on, after a few days he felt he knew enough and went at it himself i was relieved to have my office back to myself and needed to knuckle down and get some good days in to salvage what was turning out be a very poor week i was probably a £1k down on where i would normally have been.
Some weeks passed and it turned out that he done his bank in a number of times and was struggling to get it! to the point where his mother rang me(my aunt) and gave me what for because of the money he had lost "did i not realise he was made redundant and couldnt afford to lose this money" etc etc. He asked to come again for a few days which i agreed to and basically everything that i had told him was gone completely out the window - timings,overround etc.he had either forgotten or didnt feel necessary! again my results suffered over the next few days and he once again went away happy that he knew what he was doing only to blow even more cash and eventually go back to working in a job.
The end result was as follows : he cost me money most likely a grand or two, it cost him money most likely £4k or £5k and it left a sour taste between me my cousins my aunt/uncle, and on many occasions little subtle hints were dropped that i had caused this mess.
the fact is success in this game is hard and takes a particular person to make it, only you and your son can decide if he is that person. Yes its a great lifestyle Yes its a great income but so is being a page 3 photographer.
He recently asked me if I could teach him. Thats the dilemma. I am fairly confident that I could teach him, but only if he puts in 101% as I do.
Hi Peter
I have experienced a similar request but from a first cousin of mine who was made redundant, he asked if i would teach him and if he could sit with me for a few weeks to learn, i agreed as i didnt really have any other option damned if you do damned if you dont
The first day he arrived late which annoyed me and as the day progressed kept asking questions at crucial times in my own trading which affected my results as the day went on, after a few days he felt he knew enough and went at it himself i was relieved to have my office back to myself and needed to knuckle down and get some good days in to salvage what was turning out be a very poor week i was probably a £1k down on where i would normally have been.
Some weeks passed and it turned out that he done his bank in a number of times and was struggling to get it! to the point where his mother rang me(my aunt) and gave me what for because of the money he had lost "did i not realise he was made redundant and couldnt afford to lose this money" etc etc. He asked to come again for a few days which i agreed to and basically everything that i had told him was gone completely out the window - timings,overround etc.he had either forgotten or didnt feel necessary! again my results suffered over the next few days and he once again went away happy that he knew what he was doing only to blow even more cash and eventually go back to working in a job.
The end result was as follows : he cost me money most likely a grand or two, it cost him money most likely £4k or £5k and it left a sour taste between me my cousins my aunt/uncle, and on many occasions little subtle hints were dropped that i had caused this mess.
the fact is success in this game is hard and takes a particular person to make it, only you and your son can decide if he is that person. Yes its a great lifestyle Yes its a great income but so is being a page 3 photographer.
hgodden wrote:I think it could probably cause more harm than good in terms of putting a strain on your relationship.
I had a few rows with my dad when he was teaching me to drive, but it didn't put a strain on my relationship with him!
I'm sure that, even if there is friction when/if Peter teaches his son to trade, it won't cause any lasting damage...
IMHO, the people in that program weren't given proper coaching. They weren't properly taught how to assess the markets, nor how do deal with the psychological side of trading.hgodden wrote:Even if your son is intelligent and motivated there's a strong possibility that it wont suit him (remember the number of people who walked out of the million dollar traders program?) and the isolation part of it is also an issue.
BTW, you might like this book, which is about an experiment in which people with no trading background were taught how to trade: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Complete-Turtle ... 0061241709.
Jeff
Ouch!
They should be grateful to you rather than blaming you!
If your cousin lacks the patience to follow the rules and to use sensible stakes for a beginner, then he shouldn't be surprised when he loses money!
And whatever happened to the notion of personal responsibility - that old-fashioned idea that, as adults, we are responsible for the consequences of our actions?!? Don't get me started on the blame culture!
Jeff
They should be grateful to you rather than blaming you!
If your cousin lacks the patience to follow the rules and to use sensible stakes for a beginner, then he shouldn't be surprised when he loses money!
And whatever happened to the notion of personal responsibility - that old-fashioned idea that, as adults, we are responsible for the consequences of our actions?!? Don't get me started on the blame culture!
Jeff
oddstrader wrote: The end result was as follows : he cost me money most likely a grand or two, it cost him money most likely £4k or £5k and it left a sour taste between me my cousins my aunt/uncle, and on many occasions little subtle hints were dropped that i had caused this mess.
the fact is success in this game is hard and takes a particular person to make it, only you and your son can decide if he is that person. Yes its a great lifestyle Yes its a great income but so is being a page 3 photographer.
-
oddstrader
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:55 pm
- Location: Surrey
sure no problem ,i have the camera if you could supply the ........Predicton wrote:Can you teach me to be a page 3 photographer, please O,
cheers, P
I am of the belief that you carn't really teach someone to trade anyway, you can teach the basics yes, but after that it all comes down to the persons mentality and lets face it thats 95% of the job.
I would not like to teach anyone myself especially a family member as it will more often than not end in failure.
I would not like to teach anyone myself especially a family member as it will more often than not end in failure.
-
andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
I guess no one can really tell you what to do as it depends on your relationship with your son to a large extent.
I am a rubbish teacher, I get annoyed when people take time to get something hence when my sister's husband asked me to teach him to drive I said no. I knew it would only end in one outcome - us falling out.
There was little upside to the 'trade', yes he could end up passing his test from my teaching but he could also achieve that buy paying someone else to do it and we would remain friends with no tension.
So there is the option that he goes on one of the many courses that are available to learn the basics. Yes it costs money but if you are teaching him it will impact on your trading - so perhaps offer to split the cost. IF he isn't willing to stump up half he clearly isn't of the right mindset to actually want to make a success of it.
But before the course get yourself some video capture software and record every market you trade then each day give him the file to study the next day while you trade. Then get him to make observations, ask him what he would do and why, see what he wants to ask you etc etc.
All of this can be done on top of him getting a normal job if needs be - if he isn't willing to put the hours in again he is unlikely to have much success.
See how he copes with spending hours on end looking at a computer screen in isolation. Make sure he isn't constantly going for a cuppa etc etc. Try and make it a trading boot camp as he will then get an idea of what is involved.
Then when he is ready he can start putting some money through the markets, no need for big money as he needs to serve his 'apprenticeship' and learn from his mistakes.
Then he could build it up gradually - still recording and reviewing every single market after each days trading.
Get him reading about the mind side of things etc.
Not sure what else to say but my guess would be that you trade because you like it, Peter trades because he likes it, I trade because I like it, but would your son like it or does he like the idea of making money rather than the actual trading - they are two very very different things and I bet most people who do well trading like the trading.
At the end of the day it will be down to him to succeed - you can take him to the water hole but you can't make him drink.
I am a rubbish teacher, I get annoyed when people take time to get something hence when my sister's husband asked me to teach him to drive I said no. I knew it would only end in one outcome - us falling out.
There was little upside to the 'trade', yes he could end up passing his test from my teaching but he could also achieve that buy paying someone else to do it and we would remain friends with no tension.
So there is the option that he goes on one of the many courses that are available to learn the basics. Yes it costs money but if you are teaching him it will impact on your trading - so perhaps offer to split the cost. IF he isn't willing to stump up half he clearly isn't of the right mindset to actually want to make a success of it.
But before the course get yourself some video capture software and record every market you trade then each day give him the file to study the next day while you trade. Then get him to make observations, ask him what he would do and why, see what he wants to ask you etc etc.
All of this can be done on top of him getting a normal job if needs be - if he isn't willing to put the hours in again he is unlikely to have much success.
See how he copes with spending hours on end looking at a computer screen in isolation. Make sure he isn't constantly going for a cuppa etc etc. Try and make it a trading boot camp as he will then get an idea of what is involved.
Then when he is ready he can start putting some money through the markets, no need for big money as he needs to serve his 'apprenticeship' and learn from his mistakes.
Then he could build it up gradually - still recording and reviewing every single market after each days trading.
Get him reading about the mind side of things etc.
Not sure what else to say but my guess would be that you trade because you like it, Peter trades because he likes it, I trade because I like it, but would your son like it or does he like the idea of making money rather than the actual trading - they are two very very different things and I bet most people who do well trading like the trading.
At the end of the day it will be down to him to succeed - you can take him to the water hole but you can't make him drink.
I wouldn't advise anyone to go into trading, I sometimes wish I was never introduced to it. I don't make as much as I would like (although lots more then I used to working) and it's a very stressful and antisocial job.
Sometimes I feel like it's mental torture
I'm going to try and get into something else and wean myself off the trading.
Sometimes I feel like it's mental torture
I'm going to try and get into something else and wean myself off the trading.