Confused about Betfair commissions.

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soccernurds
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:43 am

Hi, new guy here.

I joined Betfair with beer money a few weeks ago wanting to test the system. I deposited some money, then I remember choosing the 2% option. But I am realizing now I am on the 6.5% commission bracket. That goes for every trade I make, and the argument is that I only pay on winning trades but isn't that what regular bookies do? Bear with me.

With a regular broker I would get punished with a 6% juice on entry, thats the normal way. But with Betfair I am charged 6.5% on top of the spread, however small that is... so what is my advantage here supposed to be? That I can trade MORE often? That's very detrimental to the strategy. I am not getting charged a 6.5% commision on my winnings, I am having 6.5% shaved off the target from the initial target from the get go on every trade, that's kind of a big deal.

Image

1. I am assuming that commission is just once per market entry... right? I can't really test at the moment because I withdrew my money in a bit of a tantrum when I placed a bet in Argentina 2nd division football at 0-0 only to see it register the goal moments later when the "person" in charge of monitoring the score was clearly and extemley slow to act, but thats a story for another day.

2. If I were to become successful... what kind of trading volume do I have to do to get the Betfair Points needed for a 60% discount and the 2.6% commission fee?

Hopefully this isnt too negative. I have a lot of faith in what Bet Angel could do with a truly cheap market, because that's what ive been hearing about Betfair since I started to investigate this way of doing things, but this is a kick in the nuts if I don't have the trading volume or funds to get to a 2.6% or lower type of commission deal.
soccernurds
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:43 am

I thought Betfair was the holy grail, the last stepping stone into financial freedom, but sadly just when I get into it they strap a 6.5% commission on it. Or else the advertisement all around it is malicious. I spent all afternoon and into the evening trading on MLS matches and the hill is too steep to climb over. Id have to do the math but I think my trades were alright but the comissions were unsurmountable. It has become clear the only way to do it is to have a real humoungous edge on the market or have the most direct access to the action, and yes thats where Bet Angel comes in, and I guess thats the end of the road: throwing all analysis and theories out the window and focusing on click timing.
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gazuty
Posts: 2415
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:03 am
Location: Green land :)

soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Hi, new guy here.
Suggestion for you - reading - viewtopic.php?p=265873#p265873
soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
I joined Betfair with beer money a few weeks ago wanting to test the system.
A few week is not, in my experience, sufficient for mastery.
soccernurds wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:47 am
It has become clear the only way to do it is to have a real humoungous edge on the market or have the most direct access to the action, and yes thats where Bet Angel comes in, and I guess thats the end of the road: throwing all analysis and theories out the window and focusing on click timing.
Your analysis here does not accord with my experience.
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Kai
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm
Location: Hogwarts, UK

Bit of an overreaction OP

Spending one afternoon doesn't sound like much of a sample to draw any final conclusions

It may not be the holy grail but it's not a dead end either, like always the truth lies somewhere in between (the two extremes)

The fact you're talking in extremes is basically all the proof you need that it's just an initial overreaction, so I'd watch out for this type of behavior if moving forward!

Yeah, you need a good edge longer term since you ultimately need to give 40-60% of your winnings back
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Kai
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Jan 20, 2015 12:21 pm
Location: Hogwarts, UK

soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Hi, new guy here.

It has become clear the only way to do it is to have a real humoungous edge on the market or have the most direct access to the action, and yes thats where Bet Angel comes in, and I guess thats the end of the road: throwing all analysis and theories out the window and focusing on click timing.
Hi there, I am Kai, a time-travelling professional memer. I know what you're thinking: "A professional memer? That sounds like a trick!" That is a reasonable assumption and concern! But what I am about to tell you is not a trick, and to prove it, I will type it in all caps: THIS IS NOT A TRICK.

Okay, so it's a trick. But only on the poor sods that don't use Bet Angel! You're going to love Betfair. Why? Because you will find and develop a strong edge on different Betfair markets. And with minimal service disruption! You just don't know it yet.

Obviously, I can't outright tell you what that edge is, or its exact location. You see, this would create a timeline-destroying paradox that will make the future an untradable hellscape! Instead, my friend, I send you this message as a little hint and as much needed encouragement.

Anyway, I'm almost out of time, I wouldn't want to be late for the Champions League final between Liverpool and Newcastle! I would say good luck but I already know you won't need it! If my calculations are correct I have just enough time in this unstable timeline to post one more little joke in the jokes thread.
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Derek27
Posts: 15421
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Hi, new guy here.

I joined Betfair with beer money a few weeks ago wanting to test the system. I deposited some money, then I remember choosing the 2% option. But I am realizing now I am on the 6.5% commission bracket. That goes for every trade I make, and the argument is that I only pay on winning trades but isn't that what regular bookies do? Bear with me.

With a regular broker I would get punished with a 6% juice on entry, thats the normal way. But with Betfair I am charged 6.5% on top of the spread, however small that is... so what is my advantage here supposed to be? That I can trade MORE often? That's very detrimental to the strategy. I am not getting charged a 6.5% commision on my winnings, I am having 6.5% shaved off the target from the initial target from the get go on every trade, that's kind of a big deal.

1. I am assuming that commission is just once per market entry... right? I can't really test at the moment because I withdrew my money in a bit of a tantrum when I placed a bet in Argentina 2nd division football at 0-0 only to see it register the goal moments later when the "person" in charge of monitoring the score was clearly and extemley slow to act, but thats a story for another day.

2. If I were to become successful... what kind of trading volume do I have to do to get the Betfair Points needed for a 60% discount and the 2.6% commission fee?

Hopefully this isnt too negative. I have a lot of faith in what Bet Angel could do with a truly cheap market, because that's what ive been hearing about Betfair since I started to investigate this way of doing things, but this is a kick in the nuts if I don't have the trading volume or funds to get to a 2.6% or lower type of commission deal.
The best advice I can give you is don't decide on a strategy and hit the exchange with it. Hit the exchange (with small, experimental stakes) and develop strategies as you learn. Some strategies make small percentage profits and require high-volume stakes. Others can make much bigger percentages on smaller volume markets.

To answer your questions, 1) you pay commission as a percentage of your profit on each individual winning market. No commission paid on losing markets. 2) You need to win and lose a hell of a lot to reach 60% commission discount, but as I mentioned above, you don't need high stakes to make a decent profit. NSW racing is one of my favourites even though commission's 10% in those markets.

By the way, how do you know the operative was slow to act? A goal may have been scored after or as you place the bet. It's fine to lay the 0-0 draw if you think it's a good bet. You need to be cautious about betting against a goal without access to pictures or a feed.
soccernurds
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:43 am

gazuty wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:28 am
soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Hi, new guy here.
Suggestion for you - reading - viewtopic.php?p=265873#p265873
soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
I joined Betfair with beer money a few weeks ago wanting to test the system.
A few week is not, in my experience, sufficient for mastery.
soccernurds wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:47 am
It has become clear the only way to do it is to have a real humoungous edge on the market or have the most direct access to the action, and yes thats where Bet Angel comes in, and I guess thats the end of the road: throwing all analysis and theories out the window and focusing on click timing.
Your analysis here does not accord with my experience.
I was just making a judgement on the operative cost of Betfair. If it costs 6.5% to enter a market you are doomed. I am glad to hear some people can make a profit even on those conditions, but I meant to say that by looking on how it all went down, and by how the cost accumulates, its just very difficult to win. I thought through Betfair, with Bet Angerl, it would maybe bring down the long term trading losing percentage from 99%+ to 95 or 90 percent, but at that cost I doubt it. Again, I am glad to hear some people can still break through and make money in the long term. I am probably keep trying for a while, just because I like it as a hobbie, but I just know its gonna be almost as difficult as with any other broker in the long term. Cheers.
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Derek27
Posts: 15421
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

soccernurds wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:35 pm
gazuty wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:28 am
soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Hi, new guy here.
Suggestion for you - reading - viewtopic.php?p=265873#p265873
soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
I joined Betfair with beer money a few weeks ago wanting to test the system.
A few week is not, in my experience, sufficient for mastery.
soccernurds wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:47 am
It has become clear the only way to do it is to have a real humoungous edge on the market or have the most direct access to the action, and yes thats where Bet Angel comes in, and I guess thats the end of the road: throwing all analysis and theories out the window and focusing on click timing.
Your analysis here does not accord with my experience.
I was just making a judgement on the operative cost of Betfair. If it costs 6.5% to enter a market you are doomed. I am glad to hear some people can make a profit even on those conditions, but I meant to say that by looking on how it all went down, and by how the cost accumulates, its just very difficult to win. I thought through Betfair, with Bet Angerl, it would maybe bring down the long term trading losing percentage from 99%+ to 95 or 90 percent, but at that cost I doubt it. Again, I am glad to hear some people can still break through and make money in the long term. I am probably keep trying for a while, just because I like it as a hobbie, but I just know its gonna be almost as difficult as with any other broker in the long term. Cheers.
Are you betting or trading?

If you're trading, 6.5% is insignificant. Rosehill is 10% commission but last year I had a winning sequence of something like 60 markets so I was bagging 90% of my profit.

If you're betting, you'll obviously have losses which increases that commission percentage on actual profits. But when you consider how much prices fluctuate on the exchange, the opportunity is certainly there to make a substantially bigger profit than your commission rate, even if it's not quite straight forward.
Anbell
Posts: 1440
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

soccernurds wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:47 am
Hi, new guy here.

I joined Betfair with beer money a few weeks ago wanting to test the system. I deposited some money, then I remember choosing the 2% option. But I am realizing now I am on the 6.5% commission bracket. That goes for every trade I make, and the argument is that I only pay on winning trades but isn't that what regular bookies do? Bear with me.

With a regular broker I would get punished with a 6% juice on entry, thats the normal way. But with Betfair I am charged 6.5% on top of the spread, however small that is... so what is my advantage here supposed to be? That I can trade MORE often? That's very detrimental to the strategy. I am not getting charged a 6.5% commision on my winnings, I am having 6.5% shaved off the target from the initial target from the get go on every trade, that's kind of a big deal.

Image

1. I am assuming that commission is just once per market entry... right? I can't really test at the moment because I withdrew my money in a bit of a tantrum when I placed a bet in Argentina 2nd division football at 0-0 only to see it register the goal moments later when the "person" in charge of monitoring the score was clearly and extemley slow to act, but thats a story for another day.

2. If I were to become successful... what kind of trading volume do I have to do to get the Betfair Points needed for a 60% discount and the 2.6% commission fee?

Hopefully this isnt too negative. I have a lot of faith in what Bet Angel could do with a truly cheap market, because that's what ive been hearing about Betfair since I started to investigate this way of doing things, but this is a kick in the nuts if I don't have the trading volume or funds to get to a 2.6% or lower type of commission deal.
I dont think that anyone's answered your specific issue: Unless I'm missing something, then yes, if you signed up to 2% commission then you shouldnt be getting charged 6.5%. Something does look wrong there.
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Derek27
Posts: 15421
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

Anbell wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:44 am
I dont think that anyone's answered your specific issue: Unless I'm missing something, then yes, if you signed up to 2% commission then you shouldnt be getting charged 6.5%. Something does look wrong there.
Well spotted Anbell, I completely missed that. :oops: :lol:

My revised advice is, if you've signed up for 2% commission and Betfair are charging you 6.5%, contact Betfair for an explanation. If you're successful, premium charge makes commission less relevant anyway.
Anbell
Posts: 1440
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:31 am

It's possible there is a jurisdiction or MBR issue involved.
soccernurds
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:43 am

Derek27 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:30 pm

If you're betting, you'll obviously have losses which increases that commission percentage on actual profits. But when you consider how much prices fluctuate on the exchange, the opportunity is certainly there to make a substantially bigger profit than your commission rate, even if it's not quite straight forward.
Well, I don't know what Rosehill is, but in any case if 6.5 or 10 percent is too much. I dont know if you have a way of leveraging a trade and making it a more relative figure, but if you open 100 trades of $100 in which you begin $6.50 or $10 underwater each time, thats an impossible situation, it's not sustainable in the long run without a time advantage or some other advantage that is not related to the match itself.
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Derek27
Posts: 15421
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:44 am
Location: UK

soccernurds wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:46 pm
Derek27 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:30 pm

If you're betting, you'll obviously have losses which increases that commission percentage on actual profits. But when you consider how much prices fluctuate on the exchange, the opportunity is certainly there to make a substantially bigger profit than your commission rate, even if it's not quite straight forward.
Well, I don't know what Rosehill is, but in any case if 6.5 or 10 percent is too much. I dont know if you have a way of leveraging a trade and making it a more relative figure, but if you open 100 trades of $100 in which you begin $6.50 or $10 underwater each time, thats an impossible situation, it's not sustainable in the long run without a time advantage or some other advantage that is not related to the match itself.
That's not how it works, commission is on profits, not turnover.

For example, if I open a trade for £100 and green-up for a £2 profit, I would pay £0.20 commission, not £10.
soccernurds
Posts: 10
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:43 am

Derek27 wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:25 am
soccernurds wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:46 pm

Well, I don't know what Rosehill is, but in any case if 6.5 or 10 percent is too much. I dont know if you have a way of leveraging a trade and making it a more relative figure, but if you open 100 trades of $100 in which you begin $6.50 or $10 underwater each time, thats an impossible situation, it's not sustainable in the long run without a time advantage or some other advantage that is not related to the match itself.
That's not how it works, commission is on profits, not turnover.

For example, if I open a trade for £100 and green-up for a £2 profit, I would pay £0.20 commission, not £10.
However it works, it's a high operative cost. No matter how you slice it, with such high commissions you are forced to think about the most minuscule details of the actual trade. It's all about the entry and exit strategy, not any actual match strategy, which is a bummer for me. I just want an efficient market, not to become a scalper. I was looking for Bet Angel mostly for the Soccer Mystic aspect, but its becoming evident I would have to become a "clicking" expert as well as having the most immediate access to any event I get involved in if I want to survive in it. Appreciate the comments and clarifications. Thanks.
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goat68
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