Morning
I noticed lately a few members using Proform and just wondered what their user experience is?
The annual subscription is circa £1200, so its not cheap but I guess its all relevant.
I did trial it a good few years ago (I basically ran various reports and then cut/pasted into betangel Excel/Lookup tables etc). Whilst i found that was able to use it with good effect, I noticed that my P&L wasnt as good as I was missing a large number of opportunities that developed in play (not predicted by Proform), so I dropped it.
These days, whilst the same opportunities do arise in play, its nigh on impossible these days to be able to react to the prices on the fly (in my opinion its not a level playing field anymore)
The way I used it in the past was to create tables of the days runners that were "back to lay" "Lay to back" etc..Which I can do do now on my own (SQL database), so I dont need proform as such
The one thing I was interested in with proform was how accurate is the tissue price when compared with the Betfair SP?
It would be interesting to hear others views experiences etc
Thanks in advance
regards
Peter
Proform
I had the free trial, but, gave up after 2 days.
I just didnt like the interface, but, it may have been, I really didnt try hard enough.
I keep thinking I should try .. but, have a nagging feeling .. horse-racing is in decline as a sport, both for liquidity and interest, and other sports are more worthy.
I just didnt like the interface, but, it may have been, I really didnt try hard enough.
I keep thinking I should try .. but, have a nagging feeling .. horse-racing is in decline as a sport, both for liquidity and interest, and other sports are more worthy.
Hi Peter,
I'm a big fan of Proform, and whilst I'd agree that the cost isn't trivial, for me it pays for itself.
The key area for me is the System Builder. I use it to research different angles and then export the results in Excel for further analysis - then I'll build and test automated strategies based on the analysis. The majority tend to be based around IR statistics, but occasionally I do venture into other areas.
There are so many angles that can be explored, and I haven't touched all of them by any means, but often during research I stumble upon angles that I hadn't even considered, and found that some assumptions were in fact completely false, and of course that opens up opportunities in itself.
With the underlying database being SQL, you can of course write direct queries against it, or have your Excel sheets linked to it.
Whilst I tend to focus on the system builder and database, I think the website is also excellent, and provides a good overall view of a race/card.
With regards to the tissue prices, it's not an area that I spend that much time looking at, but often I find then not to be particularly accurate. I've just checked a couple of examples that I noticed recently : from the 1000 Guineas last week - Minding was BSP 2.12, and PF tissue was 7/1 - and Vroum Vroum Mag at Cheltenham was BSP 1.9 against PF tissue of 10/1...
The support is first class - Simon will usually respond quickly to any type of query.
Regards
Steve
I'm a big fan of Proform, and whilst I'd agree that the cost isn't trivial, for me it pays for itself.
The key area for me is the System Builder. I use it to research different angles and then export the results in Excel for further analysis - then I'll build and test automated strategies based on the analysis. The majority tend to be based around IR statistics, but occasionally I do venture into other areas.
There are so many angles that can be explored, and I haven't touched all of them by any means, but often during research I stumble upon angles that I hadn't even considered, and found that some assumptions were in fact completely false, and of course that opens up opportunities in itself.
With the underlying database being SQL, you can of course write direct queries against it, or have your Excel sheets linked to it.
Whilst I tend to focus on the system builder and database, I think the website is also excellent, and provides a good overall view of a race/card.
With regards to the tissue prices, it's not an area that I spend that much time looking at, but often I find then not to be particularly accurate. I've just checked a couple of examples that I noticed recently : from the 1000 Guineas last week - Minding was BSP 2.12, and PF tissue was 7/1 - and Vroum Vroum Mag at Cheltenham was BSP 1.9 against PF tissue of 10/1...
The support is first class - Simon will usually respond quickly to any type of query.
Regards
Steve
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
i have used proform on and off over the last number of years .
i have to say that there is nothing like it available anywhere else.it is miles ahead of anything else.some one said last week on here (i think zinyatta) that there is a new release coming shortly,
it can be very daunting even for an experienced trader,there is just sooo sooo much information available,
there race cards for me are the best,there really brilliant,and there the only ones i use .i was paying 50 quid per month for them,but now there available for free every day on betdaq.
from my experience over the last years with proform i would give it 10/10..there is nothing you could possibly want that is not available,
and the support form simon is very quick replys,and also 10/10 for support,
its not really expensive when you think about how much time and money it can save ,
Marc
i have to say that there is nothing like it available anywhere else.it is miles ahead of anything else.some one said last week on here (i think zinyatta) that there is a new release coming shortly,
it can be very daunting even for an experienced trader,there is just sooo sooo much information available,
there race cards for me are the best,there really brilliant,and there the only ones i use .i was paying 50 quid per month for them,but now there available for free every day on betdaq.
from my experience over the last years with proform i would give it 10/10..there is nothing you could possibly want that is not available,
and the support form simon is very quick replys,and also 10/10 for support,
its not really expensive when you think about how much time and money it can save ,
Marc
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vankancisco
- Posts: 75
- Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:54 pm
Out of interest - what makes Proform so good? I wouldn't mind giving it a go but not sure what to expect. I've used Timeform, Raceform Interactive and Racing Research before but I actually ended up using them as entities to play against in the market. Timeform is great for this, as their ratings are considered the best. I currently subscribe to Racing Post but only use it for form, some basic stats and breeding factors.
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convoysur-2
- Posts: 1110
- Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:00 am
in my opinion , to answer your question let me give you some examples of why its so good,
lets say you wanted to run a query on a race course to see if its profitable to lay the field ,
well in proform you really just press a button and it will run a loop and return the results for all that you have asked it,lets say you asked it for results for last 5 years laying from 1.01 to 3.20 ,profit and loss at bsp for all races under 1 mile at york,it will give you the results for that,
the only other way that im aware of to get results like that is to mine data from betfair,export to excell and filter it.im absolutly shite at excel so thats not gona happen.
so it is a tool that you can play with, to find the information needed to build your self a system,backing or laying,
if i woke up one morning and said to my self can i build a system from last time out winners?,well you can check all factors of that,strike rate, percentages etc and apply filters,,up in weight,days since last run,trainer strike rate with LTOW.jockey performance,,etc etc etc,,,,,
i hope that answeres your question,
now im not selling it or on commission,but like dallas has been helping every one to no end with automation suggestions,for some one who would like to move to the next level as traders we need tools to reasarch things,we cant spend months with paper trading and scratching our balls all day.we need to do all these things to move forward,
so like most some very succesfull traders have suggested in other posts ,you start building a system with a fiew foundational ideas and slowly build on top and test,and build and add filters ,this is how we come up with profitable systems.
i hope that helps
Marc
lets say you wanted to run a query on a race course to see if its profitable to lay the field ,
well in proform you really just press a button and it will run a loop and return the results for all that you have asked it,lets say you asked it for results for last 5 years laying from 1.01 to 3.20 ,profit and loss at bsp for all races under 1 mile at york,it will give you the results for that,
the only other way that im aware of to get results like that is to mine data from betfair,export to excell and filter it.im absolutly shite at excel so thats not gona happen.
so it is a tool that you can play with, to find the information needed to build your self a system,backing or laying,
if i woke up one morning and said to my self can i build a system from last time out winners?,well you can check all factors of that,strike rate, percentages etc and apply filters,,up in weight,days since last run,trainer strike rate with LTOW.jockey performance,,etc etc etc,,,,,
i hope that answeres your question,
now im not selling it or on commission,but like dallas has been helping every one to no end with automation suggestions,for some one who would like to move to the next level as traders we need tools to reasarch things,we cant spend months with paper trading and scratching our balls all day.we need to do all these things to move forward,
so like most some very succesfull traders have suggested in other posts ,you start building a system with a fiew foundational ideas and slowly build on top and test,and build and add filters ,this is how we come up with profitable systems.
i hope that helps
Marc
Thanks folks for the comments.
I ran a test yesterday based on horses that I thought would drift based on my own database (data copied to excel and a look up table created....)
I used £50 Liability (from around noon), lay first (max lay 20), green at 10 using reverse odds, Green at current odds if not matched at 3 secs..(I did actually catch a screen shot of the first drift which as you can see was quite profound). What I take from this is that others must adopt the same technique?
It returned around £30 on the day (I did actually trade a couple as I couldnt help it!)
Not many went against me. I did notice that towards the closing stages, the price would sometimes (just a couple of times) be pushed down past my initial entry point, but all srpung back up again. This would be a fantastic point of entry for future
Im away for a couple of days so will leave this on test
Re Proform. If you could accurately predict the direction of certain horses, Im sure you will agree it would be a gold mine.
I dont doubt that Simon is a great guy and the software is head and shoulders above the rest, but surely if you were the software author (ie you knew it intimately inside out and what the capabiities were), Simon could make a packet from using it rather than selling it? (Maybe he is doing both?)
Thanks for the replies
Regards
Peter
I ran a test yesterday based on horses that I thought would drift based on my own database (data copied to excel and a look up table created....)
I used £50 Liability (from around noon), lay first (max lay 20), green at 10 using reverse odds, Green at current odds if not matched at 3 secs..(I did actually catch a screen shot of the first drift which as you can see was quite profound). What I take from this is that others must adopt the same technique?
It returned around £30 on the day (I did actually trade a couple as I couldnt help it!)
Not many went against me. I did notice that towards the closing stages, the price would sometimes (just a couple of times) be pushed down past my initial entry point, but all srpung back up again. This would be a fantastic point of entry for future
Im away for a couple of days so will leave this on test
Re Proform. If you could accurately predict the direction of certain horses, Im sure you will agree it would be a gold mine.
I dont doubt that Simon is a great guy and the software is head and shoulders above the rest, but surely if you were the software author (ie you knew it intimately inside out and what the capabiities were), Simon could make a packet from using it rather than selling it? (Maybe he is doing both?)
Thanks for the replies
Regards
Peter
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This was my thinking too on reading the OP. A pure trading technique (imVVho) should be totally blackboxed by the market in question and reflect (and offer) opportunity from those unique set of dynamics. I'm not saying that fundementals and past form won't be of major assistance in many cases, however, I feel that (in my world) a complete autonomous approach is best fitted to weighing up the market dynamics and working on those.Euler wrote:Proform is good if you are into racing as it has a ton of information but that doesn't necessarily dovetail into trading. I don't believe Simon is a gambler.
I like to think of it as being a sealed system (analogous to a set of tubes filled with water and connected by a base pipe at the bottom). If pressure makes one funnel move up, then the others must move down. If two funnels work in concert, then the distribution of the remaining liquid must level out to keep the volume in check. Given that the market is MOSTLY on a 101% overround, this analogy can be exploited in the absence of all other data. That said, this doesn't account for a runner being thrown at the starting gate etc.. (then it's a matter of QUICKLY looking at the levels and flow and seeing how you can capitalise on the temporary mis-match).
Anyway, my few thoughts on the topic (and here's a quick snippet of the first race today [Bev 10th May - 14:00] represented as the 101-overround, rather than by price/price matching)
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