hello I have been making my way along the journey to change from a mug punter to a pre race trader but I just cant seem to put all the pieces together at this time
I mainly try to trade in the evenings when I get back from work but the markets seem to be very volatile just lately on the evenings to myself or is it that I'm just missing the final pieces of the jigsaw, on Monday evening at windor I seemed to be on the wrong end of either a clever trader a big punter/bookie or a super spoofer as the markets were drifting the volumes of money kept notching up a tick and then boom the markets just collapsed against me leaving me to red up twice and for big amounts to my little piggy bank but I did eventually make a small profit in the end I would like to know if I'm just really bad a trading or are making a mistake thinking I have learned something about trading or if I'm just getting involved in the wrong races at the wrong time and if I would be wasting my time coming to a masterclass session if I cant seem to grasp the full concept on my own steam I would welcome any type of feed back as in life we are always learning or should at least be prepared to learn something new cheers steve
any advice please
Evening racing is notoriously volatile, even Peter Webb is more cautious when trading these markets
Trading is the way to make money, not punting. However, there is homework that needs to be done before you turn over green screens on a regular basis
Firstly, My advice to you is NEVER commit the cardinal sin of trading....it's something ex punters struggle with time and time again, and that's because they have been used to getting a run for their money - NEVER LET A BAD TRADE GO IN PLAY. This has emptied many banks over the years prestburydreams, it's because punters find it hard to accept a loss without the race having even been run yet. It's a change in your mindset, but it's one you need to conquer. Always take a red, and move onto the next market
Secondly, buy yourself a notebook and write down every single trade you do, why you did it and what the outcome was. I found notebooks are better than 'Word', as when something is on your screen there's a tendency to delete it, and notebooks can be thumbed through easier for reference. Also, when it's in your handwriting, there's your own blood sweat and tears on that page, which makes it easier to remember that trade and the emotions it brought. Before long, you'll see patterns emerging - you'll notice common mistakes that need to be overcome, and you'll see what sports or what markets you seem to read best. I still have my notebook from 10 years back....it's littered with bad language from mistakes I made, but it was invaluable to teach me my glaring errors.
Perhaps even use a free recording software to show trades to yourself on screen
Just don't forget, this is a journey, it's an apprenticeship, so don't look for massive profits early doors, just make sure you don't lose money - that's Stage 1 for everyone
Good luck
Trading is the way to make money, not punting. However, there is homework that needs to be done before you turn over green screens on a regular basis
Firstly, My advice to you is NEVER commit the cardinal sin of trading....it's something ex punters struggle with time and time again, and that's because they have been used to getting a run for their money - NEVER LET A BAD TRADE GO IN PLAY. This has emptied many banks over the years prestburydreams, it's because punters find it hard to accept a loss without the race having even been run yet. It's a change in your mindset, but it's one you need to conquer. Always take a red, and move onto the next market
Secondly, buy yourself a notebook and write down every single trade you do, why you did it and what the outcome was. I found notebooks are better than 'Word', as when something is on your screen there's a tendency to delete it, and notebooks can be thumbed through easier for reference. Also, when it's in your handwriting, there's your own blood sweat and tears on that page, which makes it easier to remember that trade and the emotions it brought. Before long, you'll see patterns emerging - you'll notice common mistakes that need to be overcome, and you'll see what sports or what markets you seem to read best. I still have my notebook from 10 years back....it's littered with bad language from mistakes I made, but it was invaluable to teach me my glaring errors.
Perhaps even use a free recording software to show trades to yourself on screen
Just don't forget, this is a journey, it's an apprenticeship, so don't look for massive profits early doors, just make sure you don't lose money - that's Stage 1 for everyone
Good luck
OK in my opinion as a person in the 2% of winners on Betfair i can offer a little advice which may change your thinking for the better
1. there is no such thing as a bad race ..all races can be profited from its just knowing how to go about it.
2. I think you are overthinking what you are doing you need to keep what you do very simple
3 You need to look hard at what the people who lose money are doing and then think in terms of doing the exact opposite
4 I tried to make a profit for years without success but dont listen to anybody who says there is no secret because there are several
5 personally i was trading some months ago and a light came on in my head and it dawned on me what i was doing and what i could do differently so i paper traded for a couple of weeks and I knew I had it and i now make approx three hundred a day and never have a losing day so YES uts there you just need to think what you are doing ... it may take time but dont give up
1. there is no such thing as a bad race ..all races can be profited from its just knowing how to go about it.
2. I think you are overthinking what you are doing you need to keep what you do very simple
3 You need to look hard at what the people who lose money are doing and then think in terms of doing the exact opposite
4 I tried to make a profit for years without success but dont listen to anybody who says there is no secret because there are several
5 personally i was trading some months ago and a light came on in my head and it dawned on me what i was doing and what i could do differently so i paper traded for a couple of weeks and I knew I had it and i now make approx three hundred a day and never have a losing day so YES uts there you just need to think what you are doing ... it may take time but dont give up
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prestburydreams
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:47 pm
Thanks for ur replys i wasnt sure i would get any im really trying so hard may be to hard i have managed change from compulsive fun time gambler to somebody willing to learn i gambled every saturday just cus it was saturday but thats the past last night first trade i had no choice took a 50 loss first race i was in great position accordding to the wom but then boom the blinky cursor disappeared and reappeared there i took it made the next trade plus twenty next one plus 15 next one plus 3 then total disaster was 18 green and was waitin for that last twenty second bounce u often get racing my winner and then oh now an update started on.my lap top horse won bank gone not to worry about that it happens just like internet goin off it was a sprint i had no reaction time to load markets in phone the horse made all and won but if i cant trade days how can i start if most advice not trading evenings thanks for ur time
The evening races are perfectly tradeable, yes they do have different characteristics to day time meets but then saturday racing is also very much different to weekday meets as you outlined you used to punt on saturdays - well so do most people so the effect is more real money going through the markets so they trade differently.
You will get a lot of trendy evening meets where the same pattern is repeated race after race you just have to approach them in the correct way and adapt your trading to suit.
Many full-time pro's started by just trading the evening markets while still in regular employment.
You will get a lot of trendy evening meets where the same pattern is repeated race after race you just have to approach them in the correct way and adapt your trading to suit.
Many full-time pro's started by just trading the evening markets while still in regular employment.
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prestburydreams
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:47 pm
Thanks again for a reply im at work at the moment and in sure u guys have better things to do but when i get home from work this evening if write down whats in my head in order of importance tens mins before the off if somebody could take the time to let me know if my thought process and actions are anywhere near the zone i would really appriciate it as i want to learn im not looking for a piggy back but obviously could do with a point in the right direction if theres a masterclass in july im going to pay a visit thanks again for ur time
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SeaHorseRacing
- Posts: 2896
- Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 7:06 pm
There is no secret!
The reason why people seem so secretive is because it takes time. No one is secretive its just you have to go through the process.
You have to go through the time, hard work, emotion process to make this work!
Ability dependant someone could learn to drive a car in 1 week, however driving, singing, eating and loud music takes time.
Exactly the same in trading! You can learn if you think the price will go up or down probably in a quicker time then driving.
You could go to peter webbs masterclass (pass your driving test)
However I will let you into a secret you wont be successful in this until time has passed.
(I do recommend Peters Masterclass though)
If there was a secret, the secret would be time.
Just like anything in life practise makes you better.
Time and experience and the "secrets" will be revealed.
Just keep plugging at it.
There is so much to learn about the markets then when you have managed to complete that theres so much to learn about yourself.
(you should also never stop learning about the markets too)
There will be more successful traders if they understood this.
Keep doing what your doing. Come back in a year to this post and the see what you think
the secrets are.
PS- Coming from a gambling background is extremely difficult to understand this. In gambling money comes so quickly- But there is never any guarantees. Trading is almost the opposite. Money comes slowly but when it does there becomes the guarantees. I mean when you learnt the process its sticks in you.
I will recommend to you if your serious.
Peter Webbs masterclass- GO.
Use his book and methods unttil your fully in the swing.
Then buy trading in the zone. But IMO only buy it when you feel you know enough about the markets.
There are many other books to-
Thinking fast and slow- Dont read this one yet, learn about the markets first- Amazing book- However i think i need a noble prize just from completing it.
Think and grow rich.
I watch this guy nearly everyday. Have been for a long time and still do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTNNKUBDNsU
I feel these will help you.
Just dedicate yourself to it and your get it.
The reason why people seem so secretive is because it takes time. No one is secretive its just you have to go through the process.
You have to go through the time, hard work, emotion process to make this work!
Ability dependant someone could learn to drive a car in 1 week, however driving, singing, eating and loud music takes time.
Exactly the same in trading! You can learn if you think the price will go up or down probably in a quicker time then driving.
You could go to peter webbs masterclass (pass your driving test)
However I will let you into a secret you wont be successful in this until time has passed.
(I do recommend Peters Masterclass though)
If there was a secret, the secret would be time.
Just like anything in life practise makes you better.
Time and experience and the "secrets" will be revealed.
Just keep plugging at it.
There is so much to learn about the markets then when you have managed to complete that theres so much to learn about yourself.
(you should also never stop learning about the markets too)
There will be more successful traders if they understood this.
Keep doing what your doing. Come back in a year to this post and the see what you think
the secrets are.
PS- Coming from a gambling background is extremely difficult to understand this. In gambling money comes so quickly- But there is never any guarantees. Trading is almost the opposite. Money comes slowly but when it does there becomes the guarantees. I mean when you learnt the process its sticks in you.
I will recommend to you if your serious.
Peter Webbs masterclass- GO.
Use his book and methods unttil your fully in the swing.
Then buy trading in the zone. But IMO only buy it when you feel you know enough about the markets.
There are many other books to-
Thinking fast and slow- Dont read this one yet, learn about the markets first- Amazing book- However i think i need a noble prize just from completing it.
Think and grow rich.
I watch this guy nearly everyday. Have been for a long time and still do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTNNKUBDNsU
I feel these will help you.
Just dedicate yourself to it and your get it.
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janesanderson
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2016 12:01 am
I would recommend Peter's masterclass. I was worried I would not keep up, and some of it (football) went over my head, but it changed my attitude and made a huge difference. Other than that, the advice on here is brilliant. There's no blueprint - no magic formula. you just have to keep going and work out what is right for you. For example, I use "make market" to enter a trade and then I trade on the ladder. Reason is I get into a flap about entering the trade and Make Market removes that emotion. Many might laugh at this, or it won't work for them, but you find your own way eventually
Totally agree with never letting a bad trade go in play. Ben there, done that and got poor!
Totally agree with never letting a bad trade go in play. Ben there, done that and got poor!
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prestburydreams
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:47 pm
Over the last 4 days i have traded 39 markets i had a bank roll of five hundred i have lost 14 times in the markets and scratched twice i was up 341 and decided to withdaw the profits of an evening i have been very aggressive bank wise and constantly used as much bank as possible for each trade and taken three losses between 50-60 quid along the way last night i got cleaned out due to the lap top service action centre going into update mode of which i postponed the prior evening as i was involved in the markets its was major frustrating but at the same time i was not comfy in the evening markets as the cursor just kept flicking about sometimes and helping itself to my bank roll where as sundays trading went well i also noticed i made more money on days that had jump racing which is my area where i have alot more knowledge monday at windsor i made a profit on the night but it was a real struggle lose win scratch no confidence at all that night there is one major difference i have noted if u watch peters videos he seems to have time in the markets sometimes enough to change topics on the situation while he is waiting to be filled where as on an evening this week the blinky cursor has been up and down like a fidflers elbow
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spreadbetting
- Posts: 3140
- Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:06 pm
Sounds like you're overstaking to me and that's making you concentrate far too much on winning rather than learning to trade.
Drop the stakes down for now so they effectvely mean nothing win/lose with that pressure off you should be able to concentrate and learn how the markets move rather than chase losses.
I'd also echo the comments threedogs has made.
Drop the stakes down for now so they effectvely mean nothing win/lose with that pressure off you should be able to concentrate and learn how the markets move rather than chase losses.
I'd also echo the comments threedogs has made.
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prestburydreams
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:47 pm
right now I can concentrate now I'm back at home
firstly thanks to everyone who has been kind enough to reply
I'm defo over staking I think may be the main reason for that is I'm not able to trade the day races so I kinda try and make it worth while but its almost seems as rough a ride as plain gambling at times which gives me feeling theres also a lot for me to learn or may be it is the weight of potentially losing so much in swift go like the other day when as massive amount was lumped on an 11/8 on shot which looked to me like it was still drifting but then boom I was in a good green position and had taken some 50 stakes out letting the rest run and then boom something like 51 or 59 red its that instance that gives me the gitters
also I watch various videos of traders and are finding a lot of contradiction over what I would deem to be key information as in already in this forum I have a guy saying there are no secrets and another who is obviously an assured trader telling me there are so in the end I think I get caught up doin both rather then focusing on one thing
firstly thanks to everyone who has been kind enough to reply
I'm defo over staking I think may be the main reason for that is I'm not able to trade the day races so I kinda try and make it worth while but its almost seems as rough a ride as plain gambling at times which gives me feeling theres also a lot for me to learn or may be it is the weight of potentially losing so much in swift go like the other day when as massive amount was lumped on an 11/8 on shot which looked to me like it was still drifting but then boom I was in a good green position and had taken some 50 stakes out letting the rest run and then boom something like 51 or 59 red its that instance that gives me the gitters
also I watch various videos of traders and are finding a lot of contradiction over what I would deem to be key information as in already in this forum I have a guy saying there are no secrets and another who is obviously an assured trader telling me there are so in the end I think I get caught up doin both rather then focusing on one thing
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prestburydreams
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:47 pm
any advice here or a nudge in the right direction would be warmly received
this is my own method
1)load market and wait to the last ten mins before the off while I'm waiting I check the betfair graphs for the latter movement on the graph I then make a mental note on all the first three in the market and check the current price range compared to its own highes and lows I also check the guardian metre for a strong yellow or green indicator which it normally sems to be around that time even tho the prices move missing 2/3/4 ticks at a time I then centre the cursor in the ladders so I can visually see if they are going up and down against each other
2)I then tend to side with a horse that's nearest it ceiling or at the bottom of its range and adjust my stakes to get the full amount in which on a five hundred bank normally goes in all in one go as for some reason and I don't know why I always seem to go for something I can lay which has to be wrong because I'm getting less for my money per tick and I'm missing out on 50 percent of the market moves I guess
3)when the trade is open for the first minute or so I'm happy to let the price come back in on myself which again must be wrong but I'm sure I have seen a video where peter says its ok and you have to be prepared for it to turn against u if you think you have called it right.. back to me if it carries on turning against me I red up and try and scalp a few ticks back to lesson the blow I have now managed to except I will make losses and I red up I to have had many banks blown hoping the horse would get beat I think if you have came through my root as a gambler I think its pretty standard to do the pot more out of ignorance then anything else and the real shrewd people in here would notice my first post was in 2009 I'm here I looked in and never bothered but the last two years I have made a swing to want to learn to trade and over the last 6 months been focusing on caging the mug punter inside of me who would rather just go and stand in the bookies for the day
4)when I have made a winning/losing trade I always re enter the market if there is time to see if I can grab some more is this right ?
5)liquidity its just not there of an evening in the main but I can only trade at these times at the minute so I see it like its these races or nothing so this has to be wrong and I should obviously lower my stakes
this is my own method
1)load market and wait to the last ten mins before the off while I'm waiting I check the betfair graphs for the latter movement on the graph I then make a mental note on all the first three in the market and check the current price range compared to its own highes and lows I also check the guardian metre for a strong yellow or green indicator which it normally sems to be around that time even tho the prices move missing 2/3/4 ticks at a time I then centre the cursor in the ladders so I can visually see if they are going up and down against each other
2)I then tend to side with a horse that's nearest it ceiling or at the bottom of its range and adjust my stakes to get the full amount in which on a five hundred bank normally goes in all in one go as for some reason and I don't know why I always seem to go for something I can lay which has to be wrong because I'm getting less for my money per tick and I'm missing out on 50 percent of the market moves I guess
3)when the trade is open for the first minute or so I'm happy to let the price come back in on myself which again must be wrong but I'm sure I have seen a video where peter says its ok and you have to be prepared for it to turn against u if you think you have called it right.. back to me if it carries on turning against me I red up and try and scalp a few ticks back to lesson the blow I have now managed to except I will make losses and I red up I to have had many banks blown hoping the horse would get beat I think if you have came through my root as a gambler I think its pretty standard to do the pot more out of ignorance then anything else and the real shrewd people in here would notice my first post was in 2009 I'm here I looked in and never bothered but the last two years I have made a swing to want to learn to trade and over the last 6 months been focusing on caging the mug punter inside of me who would rather just go and stand in the bookies for the day
4)when I have made a winning/losing trade I always re enter the market if there is time to see if I can grab some more is this right ?
5)liquidity its just not there of an evening in the main but I can only trade at these times at the minute so I see it like its these races or nothing so this has to be wrong and I should obviously lower my stakes
Its not a secret its a edge and that is what one has to find for ones self, took me 5 years to find mine some people take longer, but i have lossers because of bombers with large banks etc cant do nothing about that, but use your edge if its a good one it should outweigh the losersthreedogs wrote: but dont listen to anybody who says there is no secret because there are several
5 personally
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prestburydreams
- Posts: 124
- Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 7:47 pm
part 2 what I think I have learned but don't seem to be able to string it together at night meetings
liquidity - I guess the more there is the higher your stakes can be if you think you have recognised a market signal
market indicators - all of the time only concentrate on the first three in the market and if the BF graph has peaks and troughs that range between a full price or nearly a full price increment I try and swing trade it in this area I get the best and worst of my results I'm probably(definitely )making the worst results by my continues approach to laying first which is fine when it bounces back up to the ceiling price but not so good when it breaks through it and forms a new range and as u guys will know breakouts are very quick and this is where I rack up my most heavy losses and one thing I'm beginning to notice is when a horse is near either end of its range if there looks to be more money at the bottom like its going to drift but the prices are not really moving up its like somebody id filling their boots and it pushes back down really fast I think 8 times out of every ten trades I done this week if I had acted reacted to that gut feeling I would of been more profitable if I had reversed my trade but again this is back to laying first in most cases I obviously pay attention to the prices of the first 3 in the market like 2 coming in 1 going out and so on but I probably don't pay enough attention to the whole market overview unless the race is set up like a dog race where they are nearly all favourites 6/1 the field so to speak
races -I know there is a pecking order but I don't really pay attention to it due to the night trading but I do try to scalp the markets more in the maidens and amateur races if I can get a flat lining graph the I tend to keep tapping the make market button but this system has to go as I di get caught with bets that I'm not going to get filled and it seems to take the profit back I will in future keep changing to the ladder view so I can gain a better view of liquidity but then again there isn't a lot so may be I should just leave these
races full stop
price range - I know there is a rule of thought or it is just plain fact that horses within the range of 1.8 to 3.75 have a greater chance of being potential market movers where you can really get stuck in to them again if you think u have spotted the signal correctly
market identity - I tend to see every races as an equal for the chance to make a profitable trade in this obviously is wrong and right at the same time and from now on I will pay more attention to the better quality races even if it is mainly evening trading
grade of race -the lower the grade the worse the liquidity obviously I'm not seeing to much of the good stuff and do realise I need to chop and change my approach even in the better races as the price range of the first three in the market is a key starting position and should determine a swing or scalp approach
if somebody could take the time to read these 2 posts and let me know if I'm kinda on the right path or have just picked up old and dated methods that don't work I would appreciate it a lot as for myself I'm going to watch the markets for the rest of the month and then load up 100 quid and try and trade the whole of july and see how it goes
one last thing I never hardly take up multiple positions either side of the cursor when I think I have spotted my own signals does this mean I'm not reacting to the market and more trying to predict it ?
liquidity - I guess the more there is the higher your stakes can be if you think you have recognised a market signal
market indicators - all of the time only concentrate on the first three in the market and if the BF graph has peaks and troughs that range between a full price or nearly a full price increment I try and swing trade it in this area I get the best and worst of my results I'm probably(definitely )making the worst results by my continues approach to laying first which is fine when it bounces back up to the ceiling price but not so good when it breaks through it and forms a new range and as u guys will know breakouts are very quick and this is where I rack up my most heavy losses and one thing I'm beginning to notice is when a horse is near either end of its range if there looks to be more money at the bottom like its going to drift but the prices are not really moving up its like somebody id filling their boots and it pushes back down really fast I think 8 times out of every ten trades I done this week if I had acted reacted to that gut feeling I would of been more profitable if I had reversed my trade but again this is back to laying first in most cases I obviously pay attention to the prices of the first 3 in the market like 2 coming in 1 going out and so on but I probably don't pay enough attention to the whole market overview unless the race is set up like a dog race where they are nearly all favourites 6/1 the field so to speak
races -I know there is a pecking order but I don't really pay attention to it due to the night trading but I do try to scalp the markets more in the maidens and amateur races if I can get a flat lining graph the I tend to keep tapping the make market button but this system has to go as I di get caught with bets that I'm not going to get filled and it seems to take the profit back I will in future keep changing to the ladder view so I can gain a better view of liquidity but then again there isn't a lot so may be I should just leave these
races full stop
price range - I know there is a rule of thought or it is just plain fact that horses within the range of 1.8 to 3.75 have a greater chance of being potential market movers where you can really get stuck in to them again if you think u have spotted the signal correctly
market identity - I tend to see every races as an equal for the chance to make a profitable trade in this obviously is wrong and right at the same time and from now on I will pay more attention to the better quality races even if it is mainly evening trading
grade of race -the lower the grade the worse the liquidity obviously I'm not seeing to much of the good stuff and do realise I need to chop and change my approach even in the better races as the price range of the first three in the market is a key starting position and should determine a swing or scalp approach
if somebody could take the time to read these 2 posts and let me know if I'm kinda on the right path or have just picked up old and dated methods that don't work I would appreciate it a lot as for myself I'm going to watch the markets for the rest of the month and then load up 100 quid and try and trade the whole of july and see how it goes
one last thing I never hardly take up multiple positions either side of the cursor when I think I have spotted my own signals does this mean I'm not reacting to the market and more trying to predict it ?