My first few days and my (major) mistakes

[andyrich666]

Hi All,

Today I write this because I need a break, I want to keep going but I made a grave error, a similar error to yesterday so want to learn from my mistakes.

So I started at the weekend / Maybe Monday I can not remember, started the one click for small stakes ( I had watched a lot of videos before) all was ok, did not make major losses and major mistakes, I think my greens were only £1 and 80p and stuff and my red's were a liitle higher.

Tuesday came and a much better day, learned more of the one click.

Wednesday came and I moved onto ladders, I was easily bored of the repetitive one click and wanted to understand the ladders better, so moved from one tick's to swings and had genuine positive results............until I could not work out how I ended up -165 across the board, later last night I realised what I had did done and I think I repeated it today.

First of all my errors have been down to one thing, every loss is because it has gone in play **and I don't need to be told this is wrong and the exit should have been performed before. I have to accept what has happened.

So before the problem I had 23 green trades ranging between £4 & £8 from about 28/30 races, this using the ladder and exiting before In play

So what happened, I had no idea, then last night I watched more videos and I saw exactly what I did, I had to replay it about 5 times, basically I clicked into the blank box pink or red and it created my stake automatically, I was not looking at the green at the top because I was not used to it. So I had hit the empty box in play and assumed something was wrong as my £50 stake was not to be seen, so I guess I pushed it again and again, unknowingly emptied £150 one way or another but being a 6f race gone in play, I was shattered.

I kind of got over that and then had a couple of bad football trades, so looked forward to today.

So Today comes, I am quite relaxed and first four races with greens of £8,10 £0,80p £5,16 £4,85 a total of £18 in the first hour, well happy.

Then this

Mise En Rose 4.06 102.00 Back -102.00
Mise En Rose 4.50 2.00 Lay 27-Oct-16 15:06 2.00

I can see what happened here, I backed on the ladder and it went in play but teh ladder was not working properly, it had no matched volume on the right and the current odds was not flashing, so I went back to the one click and I laid £2 because "I had not adjusted the price of the one click" to the same level as the ladder stake.

God knows what I was doing but then even worse to come, so I knew cos the ladder was not working I should have got out regardless.

Then , and this is the worst bit

I had a 1.8 back and was waiting to get matched around 1.6 but got a bit greedy thought this horse might go down further in play, I made exactly the same mistake as yesterday by hitting the lay without a figure in it on the ladder and then swapped to the one click, and saw this had gone well wonky so kept hitting the green up button when it was £20+ and I kept doing that and then the message came up saying my bank was about to be wiped so I canceled and then the race finished and I went from a positive to probably a 1.1 lay (IP) and lost £415 on that race.

I am truly depressed with myself this afternoon.

When I have gone in play I have manually laid on betfair, this way I know where I was but a combination of errors have led me to make a grave mistake today.

You know when it is not going your way as those prices drop and you have not got matched, happened to me at Sedgefield today.

So the errors I made are not understanding the Ladder fully, Not having pictures letting a race go in play, when in play It is seems to be short 5 & 6 / 7 furlong races that hurt me.

To learn is one thing, to lose a significant amount this way is depressing. You only have so much money in the world to live with.

Some of the errors I also will put down to lack of pictures but what was looking very positive as I do know what I was doing, it was the software which I have not learned properly.

So I just wanted to let other newbies not to go in play as it can hurt. Delay is probably a major factor.

Ill post a little about me another time, in just writing this it has helped me reflect.

[Crazyskier]

Hi All,

I had a 1.8 back and was waiting to get matched around 1.6 but got a bit greedy thought this horse might go down further in play, I made exactly the same mistake as yesterday by hitting the lay without a figure in it on the ladder and then swapped to the one click, and saw this had gone well wonky so kept hitting the green up button when it was £20+ and I kept doing that and then the message came up saying my bank was about to be wiped so I canceled and then the race finished and I went from a positive to probably a 1.1 lay (IP) and lost £415 on that race.

Hi Andy.if you go in play you must not rely on the green up button in short races near the end. The odds change so often before the bet even reaches the market that you can end up losing MORE than your max liability by clicking green up!

See my thread below for more details:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11402&hilit=+green+up
others often had the same issue too. Either use BF's own cash-in button on the site (this will never increase liability, no matter how many times you spam it) or better still, just set a single back / lay and wait for it to be matched.

Either way I hope you get the ladder sorted. personally I can't fathom the ladder and only ever use one-click and mostly automation or bots with signals, etc. My biggest loses BY FAR are from spam clicking in play and 5,6 and 7f races are the worst -there's no time to recover.

Good luck!

[workpeter]

Not to be critical but why are you using real money when you are still learning the software? That's unnecessary risk. Just stay in practice mode for a few months.

[Dallas]

If your going to use live mode then i would certainly be setting some small pre-set stakes till you get used to the software. Also because the software refreshes faster than the BF website and due to the in-play delay on all bets its possible to submit several bets before the first even reaches the markets so you should always be allowing enough time between clicks (can be hard if you see a loss getting worse) to avoid having unwanted bets matched. The software can cancel unmatched bets eachtime you green up but ONLY if these have already reached and are showing in the market so clicking to green up 3 times in quick succession will just end up sending 3 bets into the market which could turn a good profit into loss - as you ve discovered.

You've spotted what you have done wrong which is a good thing and at least now can work on it not happening again but if it does deal with it slightly different.

Another way to safe guard against going in-play is by running a automation bot in the back ground which will green/red you up and close all your open poisitions at the off, there is a ready made one here to do just that.
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=11361

[andyrich666]

I understand what you say but because I have watched the practice mode on the video, the only way I will learn my own mistakes as I have all my life is with my own money, Its not that I have no knowledge of trading / betfair or API, The program got me, my fault yes but 100% I feel I would have made the same mistakes had I used the practice and then went live.

That is the way I am, I lose my money I know or workout how, if I use practice mode it is like playing a game and you just reset like the cheat mode to get back, I would not learn from it, I am not made that way.

I appreciate your input though and I hope others will go the practice route rather than jump straight in. I hope that does not sound arrogant, I thought had I used the practice I don't think my brain would have took it in.

[andyrich666]

You've spotted what you have done wrong which is a good thing and at least now can work on it not happening again but if it does deal with it slightly different.

Another way to safe guard against going in-play is by running a automation bot in the back ground which will green/red you up and close all your open poisitions at the off, there is a ready made one here to do just that.
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=11361

Thanks for your input/reply ........I noticed this on some of the videos I watched last night,
and this morning, I think for now I will implement that feature, I certainly need to understand the timing of this feature better.

Whats done is done. I will do my upmost not to go in play again, I was warned about it not just on the videos but by a guy o this forum also, I have well and truly had my fingers burned and need to eradicate that issue. If it ever happens again I will just flick to the betfair page rather than do here, that way I will know where I am, but I think the software has all the tools to stop this from happening.

[megarain]

I had a pretty long reply, lost in submission .. so, I will change my emphasis slightly.

If u are used to other software, BA is v different, in that it tends to focus on pre-race, much more, than 'in-play', and many safeguards that are in other programs, do not appear here.

Its a balance, and I hear u, that losses will focus u down the road, but, mentally, they can add up.

U are not alone, I have had v significant losses, using this program, that could have been avoided.

Suggestions, to modify

1.green-up calc
2.in-play green-button, being allowed to go red
3.limit on market liability
4.limit on price being hit (box flashes 8, and u lay 40)

are still awaiting development, to name just a few.

I tend to now use BA just for pre-race. I use other software for in-play ..

I dont especially blame the developers .. everyone will want something slightly different, and there are only so many man hrs.

But, we are paying, and I feel are allowed to sometimes vent.

Good luck going down the road .. the forum is active in replying to questions, which is great, but, actual development to fix, in my view, critical issues, isnt so fast (I understand they have other priorities).

[andyrich666]

Hi Andy.if you go in play you must not rely on the green up button in short races near the end. The odds change so often before the bet even reaches the market that you can end up losing MORE than your max liability by clicking green up!

See my thread below for more details:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11402&hilit=+green+up
others often had the same issue too.
Good luck!

Thanks I will read this now, The only thing is I had what some would call a relatively large bank for a newbie using this software, however it could have been a lot worse had I had a larger bank because the message to tell me I have spunked the lot, would not have come up.

That is I guess a positive to come out of this.

[Dallas]

Suggestions, to modify

1.green-up calc
2.in-play green-button, being allowed to go red
3.limit on market liability
4.limit on price being hit (box flashes 8, and u lay 40)

are still awaiting development, to name just a few.

Only your 2nd point not yet possible

1, green up is a simple maths forumla that always remains the same;
Entry odd divided avaliable closing odds multiple by stake
So £25 back bet at 7.6 then green up at 2.18 would be 7.6 / 2.18 * £25 = £87.16 lay bet required at odds of 2.18 to green up equally

2, not yet avaliable
3, can already be set by going into settings > edit settings > staking
4, can already be set by going into settings > edit settings > behaviour and tick the 'prevent trade closeure bets being placed on selection greater than (whatever odds)

[megarain]

Hi.

1. When I see a green-up figure, less than the profit of a 2 selection market, its hardly re-assuring.

plcalc.jpg

If the 'wrong' trades are made, on the wrong selection, the green-up figure often shows red, yet, u have a locked in profit. I will find an image, and upload later.

2. I know the calc, is tricky .. but, I dont see, why there is no setting, which BA calls, when a green-up is triggered. If just 1 selection has been traded, the green-up shud not be sent, if the mkt changes to a red, in the micro-second, before execution.

3. Ok, but, I am sure i have encountered issues with this, I will just have to re-create conditions.

//Just found it//

The setting, under staking, is per transaction. So, if u have a £200 liab, u can still hit it 5 times, and it will send £200 per click, giving a £1k exposure. There shud be a mkt exposure setting, as well as a per transaction setting.

4. The prevent trade closure setting, is v restrictive. U put in just one price .. say 40, but, if u are laying at 8, and it returns u a lay of 30, u are not happy. I would love to see some intelligence built in. If the last 5 trades, were within 10% of 8, it should not allow u, to lay 30, without a confirmation.

All of my requests are defensive. it is not easy to beat betfair .. just giving it away, is taxing.

[Bluesky]

Sorry to hear about your loss andyrich. Be careful not to revenge trade over the next few days trying to get that money back. Its obvious from your post that this has upset you, it would upset most people I'm sure.

The last thing you want to be doing if your feeling upset and annoyed is to trade though, so try and make sure your in a nice and calm state of mind when you return to the markets.

[andyrich666]

Before I would have, for sure and maybe lost a lot more, and to be truthful after the evert before writing my post I was walking around in a daze this afternoon looking at the Man U V Burnley market for chasing, however hopefully those days are gone because if they are not will **never** be cut out for this.

I was not going to come back tonight but I did, after 4 hours of relaxing I came back and traded a couple of horses at Chelmsford for a tenner here and there, I had a good trade on Andy Murray aswell that I did not have to green out on, not at all..... but I did because that is the point of all of this. Gives confidence that I am doing right.

Ive done a lot worse in my life before getting here. My point has raised some discussion to improve the software, plus gave me a post that has made me ponder in play markets and the software.... and the fact that I was not aware of the stops I could have put in place and did not learn the ladder system properly.

[Dublin_Flyer]

Another way to safe guard against going in-play is by running a automation bot in the back ground which will green/red you up and close all your open positions at the off, there is a ready made one here to do just that.
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=11361

Great advice from Dallas here. When I was getting used to swing trading I set my green/red time for 10 seconds from the advertised race time (I had no live pictures)
With an audible signal of 1 minute to the race time, it gave me enough time to green/red up myself manually if I wanted at that point, and overall it's a great way to discipline yourself to close your trades early and eliminates going in-play completely.