England v Algeria

Football, Soccer - whatever you call it. It is the beautiful game.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Quite. You might as well put a traffic cone on the pitch for all the impact he has...

And call me old fashioned, but shouldn't a striker be able to score goals?

Jeff
JollyGreen wrote:
Sorry but I don't understand it. [Heskey] is so out of form he doesn't warrant a place in the squad let alone the starting line up IMHO. [...]

His shooting prowess is awful..."he couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo!"
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

I wouldn't write England off just yet.

If they continue playing as they have been doing, then the true odds should be 130.0 rather than 13.0! But Capello is a world-class manager, and he and the team's sports psychologist may be able to turn the team's performance around. For example, they may use the approach they use to prepare the team for penalties: http://www.1000goals.com/england-to-use ... -shootouts

Jeff
hgodden wrote:
LeTiss 4pm wrote:crap performance

It's probably a good time to start laying England for the World Cup outright
Couldn't agree more. It's becomming plainly obvious there is no way we're going to win this tournament
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

I would say that Lampard and Terry are also world class. You could also argue that some of the less celebrated players like Wright-Phillips and Carrick are up there with the best in the world. You don't get to play for the likes of Man U or Man City without having something special about you...

Jeff
JollyGreen wrote:
Rooney is world class, Ashley Cole is a world class left back. Gerard is close but perhaps not quite World Class IMHO and the rest you can forget.
Mug
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:53 am

No use if they can't play together.
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Indeed. The England shirt is jinxed!

If our players played for their country they way they did for their clubs, we'd be one of the very top teams in the world!

Jeff
Mug wrote:No use if they can't play together.
lilgreenback
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 11:28 am

A lot has been made as to why can't the England players play like they do at their clubs. Part of the the reason may be the "big fish small pond".

What I mean by that is this Barca, Real Madrid Cheslsa, M.UTD, Arsenal, Liverpool as was (before Alonso/Arbeloa left) would batter some of these International sides.

The Club sides are in many respects the cream of football. England just do not have the strength/quality in depth.

Lampard/Terry/A.Cole (as do the other Club sides) have a string of quality players along side them. There is no Heskey, Crouch or DeFoe there. When England all get together there is a group of players be they talented or not but no Team.

I must say I had forgotten about Euro 08 and not qualifying. But lets look back to WC 06 and 02 did we not have the same issues regarding player selection. The inclusion of players who were not fit hoping the would be OK (stubbed toes and metatarsels)and taking those who were suspect and frankly not up to it.

Pinning our hopes on Rio being fit, Ledley's knees holding out, Carragher who did not want to play, in some ways we have learned nothing.

But also the fiasco re the FA and Capello's contract etc it's Groundhog Day. Sven's gardening leave and Mclaren's brolly, tactical dithering as we have run out of options brought on by our incompetence. It's about time the blazer brigade who strut round these events with their freeloading attitude and 1st class perks were made accountable.

It could be worse how are the French feeling!!!! their manager will be on his way to the Bastille. ;)
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

PS -

This article may explain why the England players were distinctly lacking in morale against Algeria:

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/news/85 ... -over.html

But even if this is true, it's no excuse! I'm sure we've all had bosses we've hated, but it's no reason not to give 100%!

Jeff
Ferru123 wrote:Indeed. The England shirt is jinxed!

If our players played for their country they way they did for their clubs, we'd be one of the very top teams in the world!

Jeff
Mug wrote:No use if they can't play together.
mulberryhawk
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:37 am

I dont want to labour the point or irritaate any staunch English supporters on here but what is it that the English press and public actually want.

Fabio Capello was employed by the FA based on his coaching achievments. These achievements were realised by employing methods which he has presumably used throughout his long and illustrious career as well as this qualifying campaign .

There has been no criticisim of him and his methods in either matters tactical or dealing with players up until now. Why not? I presume the qualifying campaign where he selected Heskey with some success is a distant memory now ( that statistic constantly being trotted out about England and Rooney playing better with Heskey in the team by all the hacks)... I also presume on all of Englands pre season tours and away games in qualifying the players have been following the house rules laid out by don fabio without dissent until now.

Instead, after all the sven "turnip" bashing, and lambasting of the wag culture of the last world cup everyone is up in arms about the current managements treatment of these over inflated celebrities. Comparing him to postman pat in the papers, how is that actually helping anyone...

To make the situation even more unbearable we are subjected to "professional" commontators of the ilk of Gareth Southgate, Graeme Taylor, Andy Townsand offering their half baked logic on what a world class ex player and manager of Capellos ilk should do!

What have any of these people achieved in any of their playing or management careers to question the logic of one of the best managers in football full stop!

England will be fine, Capello will organise them to win their next game. But we must not forget that its the Eleven players on the pitch that control the ball, make runs, passes , tackles and take shots. The buck should ultimately stop with the players. There were too many passengers in the last game, players hiding, afraid to get on the ball and make things happen.

One last thing, I actually think that Heskey should not be playing that Joe Cole should as well as Defoe and Crouch. But all these people calling for Cole the messiah to step in and rescue the English from a tournament devoid of imagination beware. Joe Cole is clearly not match fit and will likely not be as sharp as he has been in the past so what happens when Don Fabio caves into the press and public opinion and plays Cole and he doesent perform? Who do the press and the media blame then.....

Im not actually English but I think under Capello they will go very close to winning the world cup. Why the optimisim....Hes Italian, they know how to win. They always start the tournaments off slow and plot their way through one game at a time . And England resemble an Itaian team at the minute to me. Good luck and remember England fans, keep the faith ! And dont be too critical, because none of you are even nearly qualified enough to question capello :)
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Hi Mulberryhawk

I beg to differ.

Yes, Capello knows far more about management and about football than I ever will.

But I am still entitled to question whether it's good management for him to be aloof towards his team.

Or whether it makes sense to play a striker (Heskey) with a dismal scoring record for both club and country.

Perhaps part of the problem is that the FA appointed a foreigner. Maybe management approaches and footballing tactics that work well on the Continent don't get the best out of English players.

Jeff
mulberryhawk wrote:And dont be too critical, because none of you are even nearly qualified enough to question capello :)
mulberryhawk
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:37 am

Hey Ferru,

I jest, of course you and everyone is entitled to their opinion ;)

The point I was merely trying to raise was that the very pundits, hacks and public who were singing his praises for his disciplinarian and single minded approach after Sven and Mclarans reigns. The same people who cited the stats that show that both Rooney and England play better with Heskey are now trying to undermind his methods.

For what its worth I agree with you,I dont think Heskey should be starting either. I would actually play Crouch and Defoe up front with Rooney in behind and Cole in Midfield. But thats just my subjective opinion.

Steve Mclaran hardly got the best out of the players when he was in charge so Im not sure the nationality of the manager is the problem either.

Anyway Im not trying to fall out with anyone but I think the coach should be afforded the respect his achievments in the game warrant. I hope England go a long way in the tournament because I dont know how the English media and population will be able to cope with another world cup failure...
rascal01
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:09 pm

mulberryhawk - i agree with your first post.
For Terry to state in the press conference that Capello should be picking certain people (J cole: i also wish he was picked) & diff formations smacks of incomprehensible arrogance, complete disrespect for the manager & the fellow squad players. It also tells the FA that they have picked the wrong man for the job, once again. Has there been any player in history at top level who has ever advocated the manager to pick another player on national (global) tv? Doubt it.

Noones place is safe in the team, not even Terry's, so for him to assume that he knows better imo gives the FA grounds to send him home.

Whatever formation you are asked to play by your manager you show respect and try & execute his plans to the best of your ability. If that fails then the manager knows his fate. Gerrard played LM in qualifying with success, he has now decided that though being picked on the left he will come in & leave one of the best RBs in the world heavily exposed & unable to attack. Basically Gerrards indiscipline screws the team up, just like a certain Beckham did on countless occasions. Are the players now too big to play for their country?

Your 2nd post somehow loses the plot though, Rooney behind a front 2 is an experiment at best, a farcicle formation at worst. Hes never played behind 2 strikers. 4-5-1, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 he has shown he can play in all of these.

For gods sake the forwards could play in defence & vice versa & they should be able to string more passes together than what happened on Fri. This is purely down to whats going on in their heads - as Capello mentioned.

I am sick with these prima donnas, I would love to see all of the remaining squad players who havent played yet replace the current so called "golden generation" for the last game, regardless the result & stick it to them.

I also agreed with your lambasting of the pundits / exp pros / ex managers who all seemed to think it was fine to voice your disapproval with the manager. Do they not think Hart & Dawson et al may also want to speak out about having amazing seasons yet not having a chance to show their ability on the biggest stage?

I have had enough of supporting England, I am happy to watch the remainder games but am almost hoping Terry et al get their way & still get spanked. Rooney, Gerrard, & Terry have come out of this saga appallingly imo.

Will we hear anything from the FA about any of this? Fat chance. (And this is in no way a similar situation to France - so please no comparisons). I hope Capello has the balls to either drop the dissenters or leave the world cup.
rascal01
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:09 pm

"best RBs...".....i meant LB - A Cole. Has had v little chance to attack as he has no cove thats to Gerrard.
mikesalter
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:30 pm

I must admit I watched in disdain at the performance last Friday, particularly the inability to control the ball and the lack of inventiveness shown once anywhere beyond their own third of the pitch. I am of the mind that England should have Gerrard in behind Rooney and Cole on the outside but Im not an expert. Personally I would have taken Adam Johnson having seen him play regularly at Boro (in the flesh whilst freezing to death at the Riverside not the armchair version)and think he would have brought something to the party.

There are a couple of things I think are important for England and all the 'expected' qualifiers. For England the club situation is a real problem. English players do well in the premiership but the mid-fielders particularly tend to do the same job and rely on overseas players to do the creative work. Lampard and Gerrard are versions of the same player and it will always be hard to make them work together.

The second thing is that the 'cannon fodder' doesnt think of itself like that. These teams are well organised and as soon as they lose the ball everyone heads back and defends, they often dont even leave 1 player in the opposing half. The big teams and players are going to have to learn to deal with this and maybe they should play a couple of warm ups against championship sides who are told not to try and win but to try not to let any goals in. That way they might learn to break down the beligerence of teams like Algeria.

One final thing, I've watched a large number of games and apologies to and Itallians out there but when the Itallian player was pounding the ground in 'agony' following a brush against the side of his face by a New Zealand arm I resorted to shouting profanities at the telly. It's my number one pet hate and the penalty was little better, he was held so I suppose it was a penalty but the ref for the US Slovakia game felt 3 cases of the same offence was a foul committed by the held not the holder. Anyway I went out and cut the hedge at that point feeling because my wife rightly questioned why I was watching the game when it was annoying me so much!
mulberryhawk
Posts: 165
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:37 am

rascal01,

Your 2nd post somehow loses the plot though, Rooney behind a front 2 is an experiment at best, a farcicle formation at worst. Hes never played behind 2 strikers. 4-5-1, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 he has shown he can play in all of these.

You are 100% right ,what I would like to see is not what England should do, and I would be shocked if Capello decided to do something that you quite rightly pointed out would be experimantal at best.

Im a footballing romantic at heart though and endorse the "total football" approach of the dutch back in the 70`s. I think any player should be able to play in any position as the basic skill set is the same. Thats why I would like to see every creative forward thinking player like Joe Cole play because at least I would be entertained if nothing else:)
Iron
Posts: 6793
Joined: Fri Dec 11, 2009 10:51 pm

Just to add to that, Sir Alex admitted that he made a mistake a couple of seasons ago by not putting Rooney in a position where he could score more goals. Aside possibly from Owen when he's fit, Rooney is the best finisher England have, so it makes sense to give him the best chances at goal.

Jeff
mulberryhawk wrote:rascal01,

Your 2nd post somehow loses the plot though, Rooney behind a front 2 is an experiment at best, a farcicle formation at worst. Hes never played behind 2 strikers. 4-5-1, 4-4-2, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 he has shown he can play in all of these.

You are 100% right ,what I would like to see is not what England should do, and I would be shocked if Capello decided to do something that you quite rightly pointed out would be experimantal at best.

Im a footballing romantic at heart though and endorse the "total football" approach of the dutch back in the 70`s. I think any player should be able to play in any position as the basic skill set is the same. Thats why I would like to see every creative forward thinking player like Joe Cole play because at least I would be entertained if nothing else:)
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