Jockeys Playing It Cool On The Bridle

[mhorro]

Trying to get 20% out of the market in-play yesterday in-play on horse Oxwich Bay

FFos Las 2.30

Oxwich Bay seemed to have the winner covered, the commentator made this point at which point I said to my wife this horse will not win!!!!!

I see it so often Jockeys do not put the race to bed. They might give the indication they have a lot of horse under them!!!!!

Certain Jockeys who I cannot name I will avoid like the plague as this seems to occur many times when they are riding.

Hold up jockeys on the flat drive me mad and I think we all know who these are!!!!

Monday morning gripe!

[Anna List]

Trying to get 20% out of the market in-play yesterday in-play on horse Oxwich Bay

FFos Las 2.30

Oxwich Bay seemed to have the winner covered, the commentator made this point at which point I said to my wife this horse will not win!!!!!

I see it so often Jockeys do not put the race to bed. They might give the indication they have a lot of horse under them!!!!!

Certain Jockeys who I cannot name I will avoid like the plague as this seems to occur many times when they are riding.

Hold up jockeys on the flat drive me mad and I think we all know who these are!!!!

Monday morning gripe!

So why not lay them, or am I missing something here?

[Black Ice]

Yes Anna..I think you are! (surprising coming from you!! The 5/6 sec delay on the picture...that is about half a furlong in flat races...a multitude of things can change in half a furlong...and of course the on-course layers have already reacted so you are getting a huge lay price by the time you see whats happening. IMO pics are a huge negative for IP trading. And of course over jumps the horse you just backed coming to the last with race in safe keeping.. may have fallen already!!

[Anna List]

Yes Anna..I think you are! (surprising coming from you!! The 5/6 sec delay on the picture...that is about half a furlong in flat races...a multitude of things can change in half a furlong...and of course the on-course layers have already reacted so you are getting a huge lay price by the time you see whats happening. IMO pics are a huge negative for IP trading. And of course over jumps the horse you just backed coming to the last with race in safe keeping.. may have fallen already!!

I think you missed the point.

The op related to certain jockeys, though not all, TOO FREQUENTLY not putting a race to bed. This has nothing to do with picture delay, which I am well aware of

[SeaHorseRacing]

30% of all horses running in Class 3 and above are non-triers.

Look at races better then class 3, the market is so efficient your struggle to gain an edge.

If you want a perfect example of a trainer who fiddles a lot of horses look no further then Richard Guest, have a look at his horses and you easily see a pattern. You need to assess before the race whether you think they are likely triers or not. Find a race with a lot of non-triers and your laughing.

Horses that are non-triers still do win. A jockey will take the trainers instructions on board and sometimes after all there attempts they have to ride the horse to the line or either receive a ban for fixing. I have seen from the horses mouth myself. Jockeys returning apologising for winning "sorry, nothing I could do" Find one of these that wasn't trying last time and you've got an even bigger edge.

[SeaHorseRacing]

Hold up jockeys on the flat drive me mad and I think we all know who these are!!!!

Additionally, I don't understand why people are so afraid to say that racing is a fix. Or keep it in secrecy.

At the end of the day if all racing became 100% clean the bookies would still win because all they would have to do is adjust their odds. They have an over round and they will always win long term.

If favourites starting winning 50% of the time it would result in favourites always being shorter then they normally are.

People may argue differently but the rules of racing, especially in handicaps, are as follows, there worse your horse performs the more chance it has of winning in the future, these rules alone will always allow for fiddling.

Types of fiddling are as follows, but only if connections know the following are not giving the horse its best chance to win.

Running a horse unsuited on either ground, trip or track = form of fiddling
Running a horse in an unfavoured position = form of fiddling
Running a horse who is unfit (needs the run) = form of fiddling
Holding a horseback or not making appropriate steps of an honest ride = form of fiddling
Using the whip on a hands and heels horse =form of fiddling
Riding hands and heels on a lazy horse= form of fiddling
Using an innaprioprate or untalented jockey on purpose= form of fiddling

I am only speaking from experience too. I have seen and helped trainers get horses fit and "fiddled" ready to win... Get to the race track and the owners turns and says. "dont win today"

Why is that because there horse is 9/4 and they want 8/1. Or they want a couple of grand on it but cant afford it today.

This is happening on a daily basis, if an owner cant get on they will ask for a fiddle. Most trainers just want to win, but at the same time if their owners are paying their wages they want their income and they want to keep their horses and they do as their told.

[SeaHorseRacing]

I have another story for you guys to help you understand the sport.

I know a top Jockey in the Jumping game who was riding one of my bosses horses. This horse was fit and ready to win.

Trainer gave the instructions to win today, turns out that in the weighing room over heard by a close connection, the jockey was discussing the ride with another top jockey.

The conversation, Different jockey in the race "I fancy my chances today" our jockey says "Ok, Im sticking my mount last and that is where its "f*****" staying."

It did exactly that finished stone last and our horse won at 16/1 next time out....

[Derek27]

Trying to get 20% out of the market in-play yesterday in-play on horse Oxwich Bay

FFos Las 2.30

Oxwich Bay seemed to have the winner covered, the commentator made this point at which point I said to my wife this horse will not win!!!!!

I see it so often Jockeys do not put the race to bed. They might give the indication they have a lot of horse under them!!!!!

Certain Jockeys who I cannot name I will avoid like the plague as this seems to occur many times when they are riding.

Hold up jockeys on the flat drive me mad and I think we all know who these are!!!!

Monday morning gripe!

I think racing is a bit more complex than you think Mark. Many horses have complexities and have to be ridden in a certain way, you won't be aware of the instructions the jockey's given. Not all horses find much when they come off the bridle and some are always the first off the bridle but still respond well to pressure, so although I didn't see the race what you describe doesn't sound surprising.

[Anna List]

Trying to get 20% out of the market in-play yesterday in-play on horse Oxwich Bay

FFos Las 2.30

Oxwich Bay seemed to have the winner covered, the commentator made this point at which point I said to my wife this horse will not win!!!!!

I see it so often Jockeys do not put the race to bed. They might give the indication they have a lot of horse under them!!!!!

Certain Jockeys who I cannot name I will avoid like the plague as this seems to occur many times when they are riding.

Hold up jockeys on the flat drive me mad and I think we all know who these are!!!!

Monday morning gripe!

I think racing is a bit more complex than you think Mark. Many horses have complexities and have to be ridden in a certain way, you won't be aware of the instructions the jockey's given. Not all horses find much when they come off the bridle and some are always the first off the bridle but still respond well to pressure, so although I didn't see the race what you describe doesn't sound surprising.

I hate to say this but based on what I've been told by a number of people that I trust and who are closer to the racing game than I, Sea Horse isn't too far away from the truth. In fact, it may be far worse than even Sea Horse is painting it.

I was at Haydock a few years ago. One of the guys I was with, Tony, was deaf but could read lips. We were in the paddock. Tony said to me 'That jockey (who was a climer), over there (thus pointing), said to the trainer, "The horse is fit today boss, we'll be winning today, won't we". The trainer then said to the jockey, "you'll win when I tell yer to win and you won't be winning today, will yer!!".

And so it came to pass that the short-priced favourite came nowhere. Needless to say, none of us backed it.

[SeaHorseRacing]

When your working with all types of horses, dishonest horses, aggressive horses, submissive horses and talented horses. Trainers become accustomed to winning when it suits their program.

Generally, a horse stays peak condition for 6/10 weeks, can take as long as 4 months to get them into this condition, along with the rules and regulations of racing this puts the majority of trainers to "try" when it suits them.

For example, if a horse is running well on the race track and the trainer hasnt even got this horse on a full feed small hay diet, he wont try to win races until hes ready. This then allows trainers to know exactly when the horse will win,.

Doesn't mean all horses cant win out of this cycle because they do, but generally, you don't really want to be on a horse who isn't trying.

The betting public really would be horrified to know what goes on in these cycles.

[Derek27]

I don't regard running a horse that's not fully fit, on the wrong going or trip, as any form of fiddling. As you alluded to horses can't be at peak fitness throughout the season, trainers need to get a run into them and can't control the weather.

When I gambled I focused on the higher class races but even if there is a lot of fiddling in low grade racing (personally I think there's more paranoia), with overrounds as tight as they are, it should still be possible to profit.

What really beats me is that people betting on horse racing for years get angry when they think the horse thay backed is a non-trier but carry on betting as though it's just a one-off - until it happens again!

Either stop betting on the sport or accept you're betting on the horse's connections trying to win as well as the horse winning.

[Anna List]

I don't regard running a horse that's not fully fit, on the wrong going or trip, as any form of fiddling. As you alluded to horses can't be at peak fitness throughout the season, trainers need to get a run into them and can't control the weather.

When I gambled I focused on the higher class races but even if there is a lot of fiddling in low grade racing (personally I think there's more paranoia), with overrounds as tight as they are, it should still be possible to profit.

What really beats me is that people betting on horse racing for years get angry when they think the horse thay backed is a non-trier but carry on betting as though it's just a one-off - until it happens again!

Either stop betting on the sport or accept you're betting on the horse's connections trying to win as well as the horse winning.

So you have a horse which you know only just gets 7F and you decide to run him in a 12F race and you consider that it isn't fiddling? Hmmm, interesting.

Trainers generally know which ground their horses act on and which they don't. Yes, the going can change between declaration and the race. Sometimes, the going can change during the day. Trainers are able to withdraw their horses because of ground concerns. When a trainer deliberately runs his horse on unsuitable ground, you don't consider that is fiddling. Hmmm, interesting.

When a horse isn't fit and the trainer runs him you don't considered this is fiddling. Hmmm, interesting.

Some horses suit certain tracks and some are more suited by others. You don't consider that when a trainer deliberately runs a horse at a track that is unsuitable that this isn't fiddling? Hmmm, interesting.

I know of a horse that was 'cleaned out' on Monday morning and supposedly put on the 'easy list' for a couple of weeks before resuming light training. I know because the owner was there when the vet administered the drugs. The horse ran at Pontefract on the following Friday. The poor horse finished a distant last. Do you consider that fiddling ?

Well, sir, all I can say is that all is well with racing and fiddling doesn't exist.

Oh, for the record: If I bet and the horse doesn't do as expected and I lose, I don't bitch and moan. It's the cost of doing business. I consider it no one else's fault but mine.

BTW, I mostly lay and try and spot fiddled horses out of which I 'don't do too badly'. If the sport were clean, I doubt I'd make a Sou.

[mhorro]

Is any sport not corrupt nowadays?

Were money is involved corruption exists.

Hey Guys and Girls look at companies some of them are corrupt including financial institutions!

"Money makes the world go round how true that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My view on gambling ( not trading has changed in the last 3 years and even more since I retired as I have more time to watch races ).

I used to own a couple of good horses and used to ride horses as well so I do know something about them.

I owned a successull tipping company which I had weekly full page spreads in the racing post and weekender and realised after 3 years that only a very few clients/customers really had the mental soundness to make money!

The BHB should clamp down on non triers in horse racing.

I heard a great saying about horse racing years ago!

"Most people look at the horses that wewre in front of theirs but it's the horses that finished behind theirs they need to worry about!!!!"

Thanks for the comments.

[Anna List]

Is any sport not corrupt nowadays?

Were money is involved corruption exists.

Hey Guys and Girls look at companies some of them are corrupt including financial institutions!

"Money makes the world go round how true that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

My view on gambling ( not trading has changed in the last 3 years and even more since I retired as I have more time to watch races ).

I used to own a couple of good horses and used to ride horses as well so I do know something about them.

I owned a successull tipping company which I had weekly full page spreads in the racing post and weekender and realised after 3 years that only a very few clients/customers really had the mental soundness to make money!

The BHB should clamp down on non triers in horse racing.

I heard a great saying about horse racing years ago!

"Most people look at the horses that wewre in front of theirs but it's the horses that finished behind theirs they need to worry about!!!!"

Thanks for the comments.

[SeaHorseRacing]

Really interesting comments.

When I look for horses to bet, I only consider two main aims... Its speed rating, and whether today is the "day".

My selection either runs very well and trades low in running or runs absolute shockers. rarely they run in-between. The ones that run shockers are horses being fiddled that I called but were fiddle again.

Especially this time of year, spend most of my time watching racing rather than trading, however... Cheltenham soon!!

When I took up trading some time ago I learned that winning even from betting is not actually that I hard. Ive hit some big winning bets over the years but 3 years ago turned up to learn to trade with nothing to show for it. If people just learned discipline, learn how to stake so many punters would be winners. They really would.

I mean it isnt difficult. Dont bet on horses that are over priced. I also think it is considerably harder to tell whether an Even money favouirte should be 4/6 or 6/4 and much easier to spot a 5/1 horse who should be 2/1.
If you stay away from Shorties and longer prices I dont think you can go to wrong. If the horse you fancy is 10/1 Just dont back it if could easily be priced 20/1. All that requires is discipline.

I have missed tipping a lot winners here just because of that, but they are losers long term.