Self Matching question

[andyfuller]

As I understand it when you self match the bet is ignored by Betfair, for example:

I place a £100 back into the market and match it myself with a £100 lay, no one else is involved in this.

When this occurs nothing should be added to the market matched figure?

It should not show on charts etc?

Can anyone confirm the above?

The reason I ask is because of something seen often in the markets, for example the 17.50 at Kempton just now, someone had a £20,000'ish Back and it was matched in one go - indicating to me it was a self match and as such it should not be registered, however it can be clearly seen in the images below as registering and showed on the BF style chart. The chances of another person being around to match that order near instantly as it entered the market? Very low - it is seen time and time again over a week.

So what is going on?

[to75ne]

does seem improbable but, what if it was the same person/persons operating from 2 accounts. on one account they error, and the other is shadowing so to speak to cover the error, or maybe they are trying to confuse things? just a thought.

[LeTiss]

The bet basically gets cancelled Andy & nothing gets added to the matched amount or ladder/graph

What you've shown on screen is a match!

The £20,000 may have been to try and frighten the market, unfortunately somebody's taken it

[Bet Angel]

Last time we used this characteristic to test the software it still acted as normal, i.e. the amount didn't show, so this must have been a match. Would have been an odd thing to match across different accounts as you would have to pay comission on one or the other.

[to75ne]

Last time we used this characteristic to test the software it still acted as normal, i.e. the amount didn't show, so this must have been a match. Would have been an odd thing to match across different accounts as you would have to pay comission on one or the other.

it was just a thought; last year or so i cant work out what some of these people are doing, beyond my brain. im just a simple scalper.

[andyfuller]

Would have been an odd thing to match across different accounts as you would have to pay commission on one or the other.

Yes that is why I thought it surely isn't a match. It is not like this was a one off it is happening day in day out perhaps not to the same scale but always when what I perceive is manipulation is going on.

I don't buy it was matched by someone else who wasn't involved in its initial placing as it happens so often and it is almost always matched for the exact amount, it isn't like £6,458 remains unmatched or is left over by the person matching the bet.

Also it happens when I might have been unable to get my small order of say £200 matched that has been sitting there for ages but up pops one of these big orders and bang it gets taken.

It is all a bit odd imo and I would love to figure out why it is happening - my feeling is that it is involved in the manipulation of markets but why/how they match the orders is beyond me at the moment - anyone any ideas? Surely I am not the only one to see this happening? It sticks out I feel like a soar thumb even when it is for much less than in this case I have highlighted.

[freddy]

I had a theory that this was happening,
think i posted in the crazy spikes fred about it,

i might be being paranoid but who knows

[Leveller]

If you scratch the trade, both back and lay bets appear in both betting profit/loss and betting history, and I suppose Betfair counts it as a match. And that sounds logical - you just cannot say when you place a bet "Hey, people, don't match this bet, I'm going to match it myself next minute!"; no, somebody can match it, or part of it, and then when you place an opposite bet, it gets matched by someone else (or price goes the other way, and that opposite bet doesn't get matched at all!); so, it's logical to count it as a match, despite your net profit/loss being zero.

[hgodden]

Maybe they did it from a different account if there's more than one person involved in order to create the illusion of a match (perhaps in order to make people think that the original order had been stuffed and would have to close a huge position, or to try and trigger bots?) Could even be a way of laundering money across accounts. I've seen this a lot and to be honest I always thought it was self matching but from just testing myself I was surprised that it doesnt show on the volume figures.

Maybe whoever it is has 'special account status'

[mcfc1981]

by Bet Angel » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:19 pm

Last time we used this characteristic to test the software it still acted as normal, i.e. the amount didn't show, so this must have been a match. Would have been an odd thing to match across different accounts as you would have to pay comission on one or the other.



account 1 back 20k account 2 lay 20k
account 1 lay 20k account 2 back 20k

no commission being paid, money showing as being matched.

[andyfuller]

account 1 back 20k account 2 lay 20k
account 1 lay 20k account 2 back 20k

no commission being paid, money showing as being matched.

That was what I thought could be a way of doing it but as you can see from the Bet Angel charting there was just the one match. The second step did not happen or at least not in the same size stake, I guess they could have broken it down into say 20 £1,000's but I don't think I saw anything like that happening.

If you scratch the trade, both back and lay bets appear in both betting profit/loss and betting history, and I suppose Betfair counts it as a match. And that sounds logical - you just cannot say when you place a bet "Hey, people, don't match this bet, I'm going to match it myself next minute!"; no, somebody can match it, or part of it, and then when you place an opposite bet, it gets matched by someone else (or price goes the other way, and that opposite bet doesn't get matched at all!); so, it's logical to count it as a match, despite your net profit/loss being zero.

The reason I believe they don't count self matching in their figures is because it would create a false impression of the amount of money being matched in a market. Betfair could just do heaps of self matching to ramp up the total matched figure to make it look like their markets were really liquid when in reality they aren't. Of course I understand as soon as you place an order into the exchange anyone can match it but how many people are there likely to be around who are willing/able to match £20,000 at such a price as shown in the images and who weren't interested in matching bets that have been there for ages.

[mcfc1981]

for what its worth i dont think its self matching.


we have seen

1.crazy spikes
2.mad bombing
3.flashing money
4.holding the price
5.mad bombing inrunning (which he brings down till matched)
6.huge lays inrunning (which he leaves)

i think its all the same person, why he keeps changing tactics i dont know and whats next is anyones guess.

[andyfuller]

Plenty of examples in the last race (15.15) where heavy manipulation was happening as well:

[Zapata]

Could this be the work of a team working together to manipulate markets.

Since commission is paid per market it may cost one of the team nothing commission wise to back 20K due to bets previously made and other members of the team could be in a position where they can lay balancing out their own commission due.

You would notice the big bets but not notice the smaller ones going through.

[CaerMyrddin]

I don't buy it was matched by someone else who wasn't involved in its initial placing as it happens so often and it is almost always matched for the exact amount, it isn't like £6,458 remains unmatched or is left over by the person matching the bet.

Could it be that two different participants had agreed on such a transaction? This happens on the stock exchange, so why not on Betfair?

Let's say I'm hanging on the phone with you and as we both want to put opposing big bets on the markets that would move the price, against our interest. We could agree the price and if it was reached we could be sinchronized to do the transaction.

Just a thought!