Well done Andy...
With regards to the majority of banal banter and non-stop adverts that we all have to endure on RUK and particulary ATR, I suddenly heard the name 'Andy Fuller' mentioned by one of the commentaters on RUK, and I awoke from my 'little trading bubble'. Initially I thought why do I know that name.... and then it clicked...
Anyway I guessed it was this forum's ArchAngel as it seemed as though it was a very through email regarding the levy, the depth of which I think confused the commentater initially.
Anyway well done on getting your email on 'Air' and a couple of good points made... hopefully more people were listening...!
RUK - Andy Fuller.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Yes as usual Angus gets the wrong end of the stick, here is what I sent:
Evening gents,
Racing United - have you signed?
I have not and will be surprised if anyone does bar those that buy the rubbish spoken by the BHA et al.
The charter starts out by stating the levy has fallen from £115m to £75m in two years 'as a result of the betting industry exploiting loopholes in the system'.
The high figure of £115m 07/08 was achieved largely due to high rolling clients of Ladbrokes it is commonly known so to use that one off figure as a bench mark is not reasonable. If you exclude that one off year the Levy has been in decline since 03/04 and is now at 00/01 levels.
Is it really the case that the only reason for the fall in Levy is due to bookies exploiting loopholes - nothing to do with racing not changing to meet its customers i.e. the punters, needs?
Would Dave class himself as operating 'business' on Betfair because he backs and lays and backs to lays etc i.e. trades? It would seem Racing United would as would the BHA who seem to be arguing that the volume of transactions and data charges you make on a daily basis has something to do with whether or not you are running a business on an exchange, despite the Government already looking at this issue and saying we aren't - what do they think has changed?
What right has British Racing got to bets being placed on overseas racing? As much as they have for bets placed on Football - non. It is nothing to do with British Racing.
They want for the 2011 Levy £130m to £150m - well just because you want something it doesn't mean you deserve it! Keep on dreaming Racing United.
Finally - when are they ever going to learn to talk to the punter - it is they that fund racing and it is they that racing need - the punter doesn't need racing - we can go bet on whatever else we like and still be happy but racing won't!
Sorry for the length of the email.
Cheers
Andy.
He thankfully started to get that I wasn't in agreement with Racing United towards the end. I have sent a further email about Dave's view that we as traders are operating a business. Only just sent it so might not make the cut and as ever it was a bit longer than the one liners they usually like so here it is:
Evening again gents,
Firstly, just wanted to clear up that I am in very little agreement with Racing United, you seemed to think I was Angus. I agree it is good that they have a united voice and that something needs to be done about offshore bookmakers but little else they stand for.
I just wanted to pick up a point that Dave said. He said if someone is still laying horses are 8.30pm having started at 1.30pm or has lots of transactions he is effectively running a business. That would therefore include myself as a pre-race trader. I trade every race every day pretty much and it is my sole way of making money. However, all I am doing is placing bets in such a way that make me a living - I am still betting every time I place a bet - I am never guaranteed an exit (for example Betfair could go down), the market could go against me etc etc. The difference between myself and a traditional punter of yester year is that I am betting more on the price movements than on the horses themselves.
Betting was made tax free some years ago with a view of increasing the overall tax take from betting, which it achieved before betting companies moved offshore.
The fact that I place numerous of bets every day and every market should have no bearing - what about the pro punter such as Dave who has for example 20 bets a year and makes their living just from that, are they running a business? Is Dave currently under his own assessment and views running a business?. They are operating in the same way as me in that they make their sole income from betting but their approach requires them to bet far less - they are doing no different to me - they are betting which the Government made tax free. Nothing has changed on that front and the Government when they looked at it previously agreed with this - what's changed? Racing is skint that's what changed.
Also if I am running a business in Dave's eye's am I running a bookmaking business? I never handle or hold anyone elses money, I bet against Betfair who only accept my bet if they (Betfair) can accept the counter bet (manage their risk perfectly), I never decide on paying out who and when, I never can claim palpable error, Betfair do all of the above hence why they are the bookmaker and need the licence and not me.
If I am running a business I am therefore not liable for Levy as it is bookmakers who are liable for the Levy. If I am running a business I would also come under the tax regime and can offset losses and costs etc.
And finally, if they wanted to Levy me it would get to the point that after Commission, Premium Charge, Gross Profits Tax etc I would just move on to trading US racing, Greyhounds, Football, Cricket, Tennis or the soon to come Betfair LMAX and Racing will get even less than they currently do.
Again sorry for the length of the email but it is hard to keep it to just this length.
Cheers,
Andy.
Evening gents,
Racing United - have you signed?
I have not and will be surprised if anyone does bar those that buy the rubbish spoken by the BHA et al.
The charter starts out by stating the levy has fallen from £115m to £75m in two years 'as a result of the betting industry exploiting loopholes in the system'.
The high figure of £115m 07/08 was achieved largely due to high rolling clients of Ladbrokes it is commonly known so to use that one off figure as a bench mark is not reasonable. If you exclude that one off year the Levy has been in decline since 03/04 and is now at 00/01 levels.
Is it really the case that the only reason for the fall in Levy is due to bookies exploiting loopholes - nothing to do with racing not changing to meet its customers i.e. the punters, needs?
Would Dave class himself as operating 'business' on Betfair because he backs and lays and backs to lays etc i.e. trades? It would seem Racing United would as would the BHA who seem to be arguing that the volume of transactions and data charges you make on a daily basis has something to do with whether or not you are running a business on an exchange, despite the Government already looking at this issue and saying we aren't - what do they think has changed?
What right has British Racing got to bets being placed on overseas racing? As much as they have for bets placed on Football - non. It is nothing to do with British Racing.
They want for the 2011 Levy £130m to £150m - well just because you want something it doesn't mean you deserve it! Keep on dreaming Racing United.
Finally - when are they ever going to learn to talk to the punter - it is they that fund racing and it is they that racing need - the punter doesn't need racing - we can go bet on whatever else we like and still be happy but racing won't!
Sorry for the length of the email.
Cheers
Andy.
He thankfully started to get that I wasn't in agreement with Racing United towards the end. I have sent a further email about Dave's view that we as traders are operating a business. Only just sent it so might not make the cut and as ever it was a bit longer than the one liners they usually like so here it is:
Evening again gents,
Firstly, just wanted to clear up that I am in very little agreement with Racing United, you seemed to think I was Angus. I agree it is good that they have a united voice and that something needs to be done about offshore bookmakers but little else they stand for.
I just wanted to pick up a point that Dave said. He said if someone is still laying horses are 8.30pm having started at 1.30pm or has lots of transactions he is effectively running a business. That would therefore include myself as a pre-race trader. I trade every race every day pretty much and it is my sole way of making money. However, all I am doing is placing bets in such a way that make me a living - I am still betting every time I place a bet - I am never guaranteed an exit (for example Betfair could go down), the market could go against me etc etc. The difference between myself and a traditional punter of yester year is that I am betting more on the price movements than on the horses themselves.
Betting was made tax free some years ago with a view of increasing the overall tax take from betting, which it achieved before betting companies moved offshore.
The fact that I place numerous of bets every day and every market should have no bearing - what about the pro punter such as Dave who has for example 20 bets a year and makes their living just from that, are they running a business? Is Dave currently under his own assessment and views running a business?. They are operating in the same way as me in that they make their sole income from betting but their approach requires them to bet far less - they are doing no different to me - they are betting which the Government made tax free. Nothing has changed on that front and the Government when they looked at it previously agreed with this - what's changed? Racing is skint that's what changed.
Also if I am running a business in Dave's eye's am I running a bookmaking business? I never handle or hold anyone elses money, I bet against Betfair who only accept my bet if they (Betfair) can accept the counter bet (manage their risk perfectly), I never decide on paying out who and when, I never can claim palpable error, Betfair do all of the above hence why they are the bookmaker and need the licence and not me.
If I am running a business I am therefore not liable for Levy as it is bookmakers who are liable for the Levy. If I am running a business I would also come under the tax regime and can offset losses and costs etc.
And finally, if they wanted to Levy me it would get to the point that after Commission, Premium Charge, Gross Profits Tax etc I would just move on to trading US racing, Greyhounds, Football, Cricket, Tennis or the soon to come Betfair LMAX and Racing will get even less than they currently do.
Again sorry for the length of the email but it is hard to keep it to just this length.
Cheers,
Andy.
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Sounds like Dave is working his way through the email - seemed a bit perplexed 
Dave is a Pro Punter so will know his stuff (can't say I agree with all his views though), Angus used to be a trainer but stopped, not sure why but I would guess he couldn't make it work (that is only a guess), I can't say I am a big fan of Angus - I think he likes to jump on whatever bandwagon is going. Though I do really like these Wednesday nights when he is hosting and they have Dave on but it used to be different gravy when James Willo was on, shame he isn't still on. Boyice on ATR really does know his stuff and runs a good blog: http://boyciesbettingblog.com/
Dave is a Pro Punter so will know his stuff (can't say I agree with all his views though), Angus used to be a trainer but stopped, not sure why but I would guess he couldn't make it work (that is only a guess), I can't say I am a big fan of Angus - I think he likes to jump on whatever bandwagon is going. Though I do really like these Wednesday nights when he is hosting and they have Dave on but it used to be different gravy when James Willo was on, shame he isn't still on. Boyice on ATR really does know his stuff and runs a good blog: http://boyciesbettingblog.com/
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andyfuller
- Posts: 4619
- Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm
Well they mentioned it right at the end but said it was a lengthy lengthy email that could be a program in itself but was an really interesting view point defending life as a full time trader. Wish they spent a bit longer on these kind of topics than on whether being a pro gambler is a good chat up line
The Sunday forum on ATR is worth a watch/record on Sundays, last Sundays was quite good.
The Sunday forum on ATR is worth a watch/record on Sundays, last Sundays was quite good.