Sorry guys, that was a bit clickbait.
Unusually for an internet forum/messageboard there a very few (if any) trolls/WUMs whatever you want to call them, here. Posters genuinely seem to want to answer any questions and Dallas in particular is a wealth of knowledge and patience.
If there is a problem, then this is it- you're all a level above a rank amateur or newbie Trader and it shows.
When I first read of the concept of a Sports Trader on the BF forum circa 2008 I dismissed the idea as something that I could do. Traders were those with degrees in Maths or Computer Science. You had to have something about you that I did not posses, I'm an Arts guy not a Science guy. Excel, Spreadsheets,Coding that's your Trader right there. I was on the BF forum looking for a Punting system or outlook that would make me money and I could achieve this by reading the form and getting the Value. I was the next Patrick Veitch.
Well we know how that turns out.
Forward to 2014 and I stumble upon some fella's blog who seemingly through determination and effort learned to trade pre race horses. He wasn't "smarter" than me, I was fairly confident that I'd beat him at Trivial Pursuit and he couldn't use Excel. Reading his journey made me believe that it was possible. I once wrote to him, "If you can learn to Trade and profit from it, then so can I". He took it in the spirit that was intended.
Where am I going with this.
The problem with this forum...
Ah yes.
I've been reading a lot about the death of manual trading in 2019. "The Glory Days have long gone", "You can't beat the bots", "Automation is the only way to win enough to make it worthwhile giving up the day job".
Perusing the forum the majority of you seem to be heavily into automation so there must be a reason for this. However I think I read that PW says that 60% of his Trading is still manual so it's not a complete dead duck. Then again one man's 20k is another's 40k. It's perfectly possible to make (on average) £100 pound a day trading pre race horses for those skilled enough, so if you're working in a call centre this is a viable option. Leaving a middle management position and hoping to make 80k- maybe not.
Forgive the incoherent thoughts and I'm just thinking out loud here and musing to myself. The days of an instinctive trader being able to make high five/six figures a year manually trading are no more- is this right? Was it ever so in the last 10 years?
Myself, I trade part time and even then, part/part time. Pre race horses only apart from a few ticks in a back to lay in running scenario. I know what I'm looking for and do it well but it's just money that sits and grows in my BF account until I withdraw if the washing machine packs up.
I've never tried automation because I wouldn't know what to do but I feel I'm massively missing out.
I've been reading a lot about the death of manual trading in 2019. "The Glory Days have long gone", "You can't beat the bots", "Automation is the only way to win enough to make it worthwhile giving up the day job".
Perusing the forum the majority of you seem to be heavily into automation so there must be a reason for this. However I think I read that PW says that 60% of his Trading is still manual so it's not a complete dead duck. Then again one man's 20k is another's 40k. It's perfectly possible to make (on average) £100 pound a day trading pre race horses for those skilled enough, so if you're working in a call centre this is a viable option. Leaving a middle management position and hoping to make 80k- maybe not.
Forgive the incoherent thoughts and I'm just thinking out loud here and musing to myself. The days of an instinctive trader being able to make high five/six figures a year manually trading are no more- is this right? Was it ever so in the last 10 years?
Myself, I trade part time and even then, part/part time. Pre race horses only apart from a few ticks in a back to lay in running scenario. I know what I'm looking for and do it well but it's just money that sits and grows in my BF account until I withdraw if the washing machine packs up.
I've never tried automation because I wouldn't know what to do but I feel I'm massively missing out.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10559
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
I'm not sure you're right about the majority being automated, there are people who incorporate automation but I only know a handful who do nothing else. Maybe you could start a poll and find out?
There is and always will be room for both approaches because they each suit very different situations and methods. Automation suits trading at a scale and speed a manual trader can only dream of, but it will be a hell of a long time before it can interpret nuance such as the flow of a football match, the body language of a tennis player or how fit a horse looks going to post. You just need to choose the right tool for the job.
What is true is that trading of any kind is a competitive game. Being OK doesn't cut it anymore because information, advice, technology etc has never been cheaper or more accessible so the bar keeps rising.
If I was pressed on what's most sustainable I'd say manual (aka discretionary) trading. The fastest and smartest quant systems have the potential eventually dominate their niche but the range of opportunities for discretionary traders is so wide, varied and 'fuzzy' that it can sustain a pretty large number of participants precisely because they can't exploit the large number of simultaneous opportunities there are at any given moment. Unless you can watch 50 footy games, 20 tennis matches and a horse race all at the same time if course.
There is and always will be room for both approaches because they each suit very different situations and methods. Automation suits trading at a scale and speed a manual trader can only dream of, but it will be a hell of a long time before it can interpret nuance such as the flow of a football match, the body language of a tennis player or how fit a horse looks going to post. You just need to choose the right tool for the job.
What is true is that trading of any kind is a competitive game. Being OK doesn't cut it anymore because information, advice, technology etc has never been cheaper or more accessible so the bar keeps rising.
If I was pressed on what's most sustainable I'd say manual (aka discretionary) trading. The fastest and smartest quant systems have the potential eventually dominate their niche but the range of opportunities for discretionary traders is so wide, varied and 'fuzzy' that it can sustain a pretty large number of participants precisely because they can't exploit the large number of simultaneous opportunities there are at any given moment. Unless you can watch 50 footy games, 20 tennis matches and a horse race all at the same time if course.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10559
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
Re the 80k job.
That's about 4 and a half grand a month. Trading 25 days a month that's £180 a day. With about 30 UK horse races, 100 Aus races, 120 dog races, and 100s of other sports markets every day I'd say that wasn't a crazy figure. You need extra to cover hols etc but if you're prepared to work as hard at home as you would in an 80k job then why not.
What you can't do is make the equivalent of 80 grand watching YouTube and scratching your arse all day, drifting along like it's one long weekend.
That's about 4 and a half grand a month. Trading 25 days a month that's £180 a day. With about 30 UK horse races, 100 Aus races, 120 dog races, and 100s of other sports markets every day I'd say that wasn't a crazy figure. You need extra to cover hols etc but if you're prepared to work as hard at home as you would in an 80k job then why not.
What you can't do is make the equivalent of 80 grand watching YouTube and scratching your arse all day, drifting along like it's one long weekend.
Thanks for taking the time to reply.
When you break it down like that it seems eminently possible but it is dependent on the individual. I go to work because I have to; give me an inch and I'd take a mile. The thought of losing my job is what gets me up every morning and if my career was as a Sports Trader I wouldn't have the discipline to see it through. Great cards this Saturday? Nah I'll take that off and go fishing cos it's a lovely day. I know myself and know I could never earn a salary without the threat of a stick.
Hats off to all those with a different mindset.
When you break it down like that it seems eminently possible but it is dependent on the individual. I go to work because I have to; give me an inch and I'd take a mile. The thought of losing my job is what gets me up every morning and if my career was as a Sports Trader I wouldn't have the discipline to see it through. Great cards this Saturday? Nah I'll take that off and go fishing cos it's a lovely day. I know myself and know I could never earn a salary without the threat of a stick.
Hats off to all those with a different mindset.
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wearthefoxhat
- Posts: 3588
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am
...and it's tax free if you're in the right country, I do like YouTube though..ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 2:55 amRe the 80k job.
That's about 4 and a half grand a month. Trading 25 days a month that's £180 a day. With about 30 UK horse races, 100 Aus races, 120 dog races, and 100s of other sports markets every day I'd say that wasn't a crazy figure. You need extra to cover hols etc but if you're prepared to work as hard at home as you would in an 80k job then why not.
What you can't do is make the equivalent of 80 grand watching YouTube and scratching your arse all day, drifting along like it's one long weekend.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10559
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
That's because you don't see it as a proper job, it's no different to any other self employment and if you just want to loaf around you'll soon be back down the Job Centre. Lots of people confuse freedom with an easy life, I take any day off I want when the sun is shining, it really is the life of Riley. But I did decades being a 9-6, 48 weeks a year slave so I bloody appreciate it, so much so that 'll be at my screen at night 7 days a week (60hrs a week) making sure I can keep doing it. It's the thought of losing my job that keeps me going, just the same as you.
Whether you work for the man or work for yourself you still have to work, so take your pick.
+1ShaunWhite wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:10 pmThat's because you don't see it as a proper job, it's no different to any other self employment and if you just want to loaf around you'll soon be back down the Job Centre. Lots of people confuse freedom with an easy life, I take any day off I want when the sun is shining, it really is the life of Riley. But I did decades being a 9-6, 48 weeks a year slave so I bloody appreciate it, so much so that 'll be at my screen at night 7 days a week (60hrs a week) making sure I can keep doing it. It's the thought of losing my job that keeps me going, just the same as you.
Whether you work for the man or work for yourself you still have to work, so take your pick.
I'm in it for the freedom and to challenge myself, to prove to myself that I can create something out of nothing, there's no better or more rewarding job in the world for me. But freedom usually has a steep price and you have to pay for it with hard work first. A lot of people want this freedom to escape their daily job grind but some end up replacing it by grinding the markets all day and end up being more miserable than before. If you want to trade your time for a paycheck that's perfectly fine, it may turn out to be a good trade in the end if you're happy with your life, but some people prefer to trade risk for profits. If you don't love it, don't do it, it's really not worth trading your happiness for anything, especially for a few extra quid in your pocket. As you can see, everyone is a trader of sorts. The day is long enough, you can go fishing in the morning, trade in the afternoon and install Fortnite in the evening.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10559
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
Yep, if you're lucky you get about 300,000 adult waking hours between 18 and 70. There's a heck of a lot to do in that project time so the more focused the work hours are, the more and better the leisure hours are. Being one of the idle rich is a nice dream but unless you're born into money it's an oxymoron.