Is race riding a 'sport' in horse racing?

[stueytrader]

I've been wondering whether being a jockey counts as a real 'sport'.

Couple of interesting points - women seem to be able to do as well as men if this is really a 'sport' - not sure I can think of any other sport where that is said to be true?

Is it really about skill/strength? The usual sports qualities we would define sport by. Or is it basically the horses that do the sport itself.

There is some related point in terms of trading, if jockeys themselves don't perform the sports, in terms of evaluating selections.

[ANGELS15]

I would say jockeyship was a real sport as it is a form of equestrianism. Also jockeys have to maintain excellent fitness, sticking strictly to diets, training regimes just like athletes.

In the case of NH racing there is an element of horsemanship being able to be well balanced on a horse at all times.

I recall many moons ago when Richard Dunwood was still riding, he was on a horse that made a bad error, Richard had slipped off the saddle to a nearly 90 degree angle literally almost out the side door. He managed to right himself but perhaps the sadde was loose as we went 90 degrees the other side. Again he managed to right himself and manged to win the race. Imagine the physical body skills required for that on a live animal going 30mph.

[Derek27]

I've been wondering whether being a jockey counts as a real 'sport'.

Couple of interesting points - women seem to be able to do as well as men if this is really a 'sport' - not sure I can think of any other sport where that is said to be true?

Is it really about skill/strength? The usual sports qualities we would define sport by. Or is it basically the horses that do the sport itself.

There is some related point in terms of trading, if jockeys themselves don't perform the sports, in terms of evaluating selections.

Are you being serious? Have you tried riding a horse yourself to see how much skill there is? It's difficult enough balancing on a horse when it's walking, on your first ride!

I wouldn't say jockeyship is a sport in itself - it's participating in the sport of horse racing. Nor would I say that women aren't disadvantaged, the disadvantage isn't so great as there's probably more skill and tactical judgements then strength requirement. There are many sports where there is no gender advantage: darts, snooker, bowls, shooting, chess, etc.

[stueytrader]

I've been wondering whether being a jockey counts as a real 'sport'.

Couple of interesting points - women seem to be able to do as well as men if this is really a 'sport' - not sure I can think of any other sport where that is said to be true?

Is it really about skill/strength? The usual sports qualities we would define sport by. Or is it basically the horses that do the sport itself.

I wouldn't say jockeyship is a sport in itself - it's participating in the sport of horse racing. Nor would I say that women aren't disadvantaged, the disadvantage isn't so great as there's probably more skill and tactical judgements then strength requirement. There are many sports where there is no gender advantage: darts, snooker, bowls, shooting, chess, etc.

But that does seem to partly back up my initial thoughts - that it's not a real or true 'sport' as such in itself. All the other examples are purely the person's ability/skill etc, but never in horse jockeyship.

All those sports also show a much bigger difference between males and females in ability (at least that's my estimate)? Women jockeys regularly beat male jockeys, with no allowance made. That true for the other sports?

We could add races where apparently weaker jockeys (less known, beginners etc) can win races against much better supposed jockeys - the horse has way too much say. So, it's almost impossible to rate the ability of the jockey in isolation given that?

[Euler]

If you learn to race read, you learn that a jockey has a lot to do with how the horse is presented for a win. Horsemanship is a key part of the sport.

[stueytrader]

If you learn to race read, you learn that a jockey has a lot to do with how the horse is presented for a win. Horsemanship is a key part of the sport.

I do understand that view, but why is there such an apparent disparity in jockey influence overall in that case.

E.g. a claimer without a win beating a champion jockey. It's surely impossible to rate jockey skill in isolation from the horse.

[stueytrader]

An implicit question, is what % difference (estimate of course) would a jockey make to selection....

[to75ne]

An implicit question, is what % difference (estimate of course) would a jockey make to selection....

about 8 t0 10 percent ( obviously just my opinion, something that would be very difficult to quantify ).

a bad jock will not add much if anything to a good horses performance, may even make it worse, whereas a good jock on a good horse as a realistic chance of riding at its best on a given/track/dist/conditions etc, may even improve it.

of cause wasting his/her talent on a bad horse.

[stueytrader]

An implicit question, is what % difference (estimate of course) would a jockey make to selection....

about 8 t0 10 percent ( obviously just my opinion, something that would be very difficult to quantify ).

An interesting estimate - like you say, very difficult to quantify. That is due to the fact every race is decided in large part by horse ability, never only jockey.

I think there are many 'grey areas' here too - when we say bad jock or good jock, there are masses of 'intermediate' jockeys. Not to mention the fact that supposed 'good jockeys' often get beaten by lower ranked jockeys, regardless of the horse's sp many times. So even a good jock on a good horse, will not always perform.

A very tricky question and evaluation IMO.

[Derek27]

I've been wondering whether being a jockey counts as a real 'sport'.

Couple of interesting points - women seem to be able to do as well as men if this is really a 'sport' - not sure I can think of any other sport where that is said to be true?

Is it really about skill/strength? The usual sports qualities we would define sport by. Or is it basically the horses that do the sport itself.

I wouldn't say jockeyship is a sport in itself - it's participating in the sport of horse racing. Nor would I say that women aren't disadvantaged, the disadvantage isn't so great as there's probably more skill and tactical judgements then strength requirement. There are many sports where there is no gender advantage: darts, snooker, bowls, shooting, chess, etc.

But that does seem to partly back up my initial thoughts - that it's not a real or true 'sport' as such in itself. All the other examples are purely the person's ability/skill etc, but never in horse jockeyship.

All those sports also show a much bigger difference between males and females in ability (at least that's my estimate)? Women jockeys regularly beat male jockeys, with no allowance made. That true for the other sports?

We could add races where apparently weaker jockeys (less known, beginners etc) can win races against much better supposed jockeys - the horse has way too much say. So, it's almost impossible to rate the ability of the jockey in isolation given that?

Obviously the horse is a major factor, just like in F1 Ayton Senna was made to look pretty ordinary when the Williams was superior to the McClareans. But when comparing jockeys or F1 drivers you factor-out the outside influences and individual results and look at the bigger picture.

[stueytrader]

Formula race driving is a good comparison yes - interestingly, there don't seem to be female drivers there though (?)

[Kai]

Formula race driving is a good comparison yes - interestingly, there don't seem to be female drivers there though (?)

Men consistently outperform women on spatial skills in general, there's some decent science behind it on how the brain is wired slightly differently between the 2 genders, which over time probably contributed to the popular stigma that women are bad drivers.

[Derek27]

Formula race driving is a good comparison yes - interestingly, there don't seem to be female drivers there though (?)

It's a good comparison in relation to the machine/animal aspect, but unlike jockeyship, which requires more fitness rather than pure strength, F1 requires extreme strength and stamina in the neck muscles to cope with with the g-forces for 90 minutes plus. I don't think a woman would be able to compete with the men in a typical F1 race.

[StellaBot]

There are women body builders, wrestlers, boxers

THERE ARE MALE AND FEMALE HORSES

Work it out

[Derek27]

Formula race driving is a good comparison yes - interestingly, there don't seem to be female drivers there though (?)

Men consistently outperform women on spatial skills in general, there's some decent science behind it on how the brain is wired slightly differently between the 2 genders, which over time probably contributed to the popular stigma that women are bad drivers.

The late John McCririck said the reason women are bad at parking is because they get confused judging small distances - they're used to boyfriends jumping into bed with them and saying, this is 10 inches.