Anyone still make money without trading?

[Kai]

Edit: just to add rationale, I'm pretty much giving up all my pre-selection straight punting with football. Though completely opposite to my view of racing, where my pre-selections are consistently my best area financially.

I assume that you've been placing your bets just before the off?

Not specifically in terms of timings. Some are earlier matched bets that I leave on. Though I should also add I'm more usually a layer rather than backer overall.

Isn't it all about timing though? In general the nearer the kickoff draws the more accurate the prices will usually be, so by the time you want to get involved there may not be much (if any) value left over, the market loves to squeeze every bit of it.

I don't punt but I have been getting involved in all sorts of preoff markets and from experience best time to get involved is as early as possible, soon as the market is liquid enough. Generally, if you get it right the market will give you a clear sign because it will try to adjust in your favor, which then gives you the opportunity to wrap up a good trade before the match even kicks off. I guess there's a decent argument here that you may as well do that and avoid inplay, that way you avoid all of the variance and end up pocketing the value difference anyway. The market can also randomly swing in your favor if you give it enough time More than once even.

But unless you narrowly specialize you will miss out on all the subtle daily opportunities and only be left with a handful of obvious ones per month, which is not really enough to be your bread & butter, even if you stake entire banks on it.

EDIT: Forgot to say regarding timing that at teamnews can be a good time to get involved, but you only have a minute or two to decide, sometimes only seconds before all the value gets swept up. Also, nobody I know really punts preoff, seems a bit pointless when there is a lot more value generated during play so that's where people try and find it the most.

[Kai]

I think with any sports betting you really need to specialise rather trying to be a jack of all trades if you want to be successful.

Yet Peter Webb is evidence to the contrary!

I think specialization is for insects

[stueytrader]

I assume that you've been placing your bets just before the off?

Not specifically in terms of timings. Some are earlier matched bets that I leave on. Though I should also add I'm more usually a layer rather than backer overall.

Isn't it all about timing though? In general the nearer the kickoff draws the more accurate the prices will usually be, so by the time you want to get involved there may not be much (if any) value left over, the market loves to squeeze every bit of it.

I don't punt but I have been getting involved in all sorts of preoff markets and from experience best time to get involved is as early as possible, soon as the market is liquid enough. Generally, if you get it right the market will give you a clear sign because it will try to adjust in your favor, which then gives you the opportunity to wrap up a good trade before the match even kicks off. I guess there's a decent argument here that you may as well do that and avoid inplay, that way you avoid all of the variance and end up pocketing the value difference anyway. The market can also randomly swing in your favor if you give it enough time More than once even.

But unless you narrowly specialize you will miss out on all the subtle daily opportunities and only be left with a handful of obvious ones per month, which is not really enough to be your bread & butter, even if you stake entire banks on it.

EDIT: Forgot to say regarding timing that at teamnews can be a good time to get involved, but you only have a minute or two to decide, sometimes only seconds before all the value gets swept up. Also, nobody I know really punts preoff, seems a bit pointless when there is a lot more value generated during play so that's where people try and find it the most.

Take on board all those points, and agree - though should say I had thought you had meant for my racing bets placed rather than football. Yes, can see that nearer kickoff for football there may be less value still around in any markets, for those reasons mentioned.

[stueytrader]

I think with any sports betting you really need to specialise rather trying to be a jack of all trades if you want to be successful.

Yet Peter Webb is evidence to the contrary!

I think specialization is for insects

Love the point - maybe specialisation is something to consider if we don't have enough trading time to spare? If we're full-time at this lark, that's time to say there's no limits!

[stueytrader]

Thanks for the above points, though I do think it's drifted a fair bit from my main question:

Is there still decent enough value/edge in simply position betting in football markets (without trading strategy)?

I do get the research/specialism issues, and probably need to address those if I'm ever to continue backing/laying in these markets. More the question was whether anyone else was feeling the pinch too with football position betting?

[spreadbetting]

I think with any sports betting you really need to specialise rather trying to be a jack of all trades if you want to be successful.

Yet Peter Webb is evidence to the contrary!

I think specialization is for insects

Think Peter's more of a trader than straight punter but at the end of the day people can only give their advice from their own experience and you'll have to take it or leave. No one's going to pop round to hold your hand, not even Peter.

[Kai]

I think with any sports betting you really need to specialise rather trying to be a jack of all trades if you want to be successful.

Yet Peter Webb is evidence to the contrary!

I think specialization is for insects

Think Peter's more of a trader than straight punter but at the end of the day people can only give their advice from their own experience and you'll have to take it or leave. No one's going to pop round to hold your hand, not even Peter.

You're right actually, my bad, forgot this thread was about punting, the title is a bit misleading. My specialization remark was in the context of trading, because I kept hearing people say the only way to succeed with trading is through specialization. So I probably agree with what you said about straight punting and specialization, that the edge is often so narrow that the only way to really succeed is to narrowly specialize it, it does make sense.