2 Years and still struggling

[alexmr2]

My staking is definitely the first issue I need to fix and maybe sticking to one click instead of several is a good place to start. I don't intend to risk so much on a trade but once I have dug myself into a bad position and then it spirals out of control to risking 10% per trade and trying to make them all work, then that easily turns to blow half the bank disaster day. There is a great video on money management on youtube by an Irish stock trader, it's just like most things with trading it seems to take a while to go into my head and stick to it!

When I started off with a £100 bank, I really treated it and conditioned myself to believe that it's £10K, and every penny's a pound. You need to because it's all too easy to be stuck with a £20 liability at the off and think, fuck it - it's only £20, I'll let it run! Then you find yourself losing money that hopefully, you wouldn't lose if you were placing serious bets and consequently lose sight of what you might achieve.

Very good point it has crossed my mind that thinking like "I'll just let this run" isn't possible in scaling up when that £20 liability becomes £1k. It's difficult to go smaller in trading but it may be the only way and thinking of everything as 10x more than my staking sounds like a good technique to build the disclipline without throwing bigger amounts of money away each month.

Any Aussie, USA or greyhounds racing stuff etc? Those are perfect for learning this market, smaller stakes don't feel out of place and it's far easier to read what's going on.

I traded a few hundred markets of Aus, USA and greyhounds throughout the lockdown but found they were harder and different to the stable UK markets and thought I might just end up confusing myself?

[Derek27]

I think being emotionally detached from the market is the number one thing ive learned is most important, being present and completely unconcerned about profits and totally focused on understanding the particular race you are doing at that moment, out of enjoyment of understsanding it and not worried about the profits.

I'd go along with that. You have to treat each market on its merits and forget about how well or how badly you've been doing. Easier said than done though.

[jamesg46]

I think being emotionally detached from the market is the number one thing ive learned is most important, being present and completely unconcerned about profits and totally focused on understanding the particular race you are doing at that moment, out of enjoyment of understsanding it and not worried about the profits.

I'd go along with that. You have to treat each market on its merits and forget about how well or how badly you've been doing. Easier said than done though.

Moksha.

[Kai]

I traded a few hundred markets of Aus, USA and greyhounds throughout the lockdown but found they were harder and different to the stable UK markets and thought I might just end up confusing myself?

All the same market to me for the most part, vast differences at times but same concepts, they're just smaller scale and some markets obviously don't get a chance to fully mature in time. I see it as learning how to walk before you run, which nobody seems to do anymore

But generally I think expanding your horizons to different markets and different trading styles shouldn't confuse anyone, if anything it should make the picture clearer and help you understand your market better. In fact, the further I venture from my own bread and butter markets the more I seem to understand them, because then I get the opportunity to look at it from different perspectives instead of one single narrow perspective. If that makes any sense?

Also, taking some proper breaks may do you more good than harm, it gives you a chance to break up old patterns and form new ones, gives you a chance to actually utilize the new information that you're learning.

For example earlier this year I took a 2+ month holiday break where I've not placed a single bet, or done anything trading related. When I returned my trading performance massively improved and I started recognizing new opportunities in places where I previously thought there were none. That shouldn't really be possible, right? And yet it can be, because I've apparently mostly been trading on auto-pilot and muscle memory and older habits without utilizing most new stuff I learned, until I reset all those behavioral patterns and formed some fresh new upgraded ones that were based on new information and experience and not old one.

It's a bit late but I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes it's good to turn off that trading brain just long enough to "update your software", just like you do with your other devices

Simply letting the dust settle once in a while may actually produce those a-ha moments you're looking for.

[TraderFred]

Going to post my trading journey here in the hope it helps me or anyone else reading. When I exhausted my matched betting accounts with bookmakers I started learning and practising pre-off racing and have been fascinated with it for the last 2 years. I had a decent amount of savings so after finishing my last job I decided to do this full-time to give it the best shot I could.

For the last 2 years I have been trading 7 days a week most weeks, I have had a lot of help from a profitable trader with calls and videos, have watched many of Betangel's videos 10-20 times every now and then, have read books such as Trading in the Zone, recorded my trading and sat up at night rewatching my trades and tracking my P&L, studied psychology and financial markets but I am still struggling to become profitable at the end of the

Sounds like you are doing all the right things and reading all the right books.

I’ve been thinking about getting a professional trader to help me with calls and videos too. Who did you use? And did you have to pay, or was it somebody you know who took you under their experienced wing for free?

[Anbell]

Going to post my trading journey here in the hope it helps me or anyone else reading. When I exhausted my matched betting accounts with bookmakers I started learning and practising pre-off racing and have been fascinated with it for the last 2 years. I had a decent amount of savings so after finishing my last job I decided to do this full-time to give it the best shot I could.

For the last 2 years I have been trading 7 days a week most weeks, I have had a lot of help from a profitable trader with calls and videos, have watched many of Betangel's videos 10-20 times every now and then, have read books such as Trading in the Zone, recorded my trading and sat up at night rewatching my trades and tracking my P&L, studied psychology and financial markets but I am still struggling to become profitable at the end of the week.

I estimate that I have traded somewhere between 10,000-12,000 races and in that time have had many false starts where I thought I could do it. I often notice new things and these do help but my results just aren't showing, some days I feel like none of it makes sense and others I feel like I'm doing it, taking those small losses and bigger profits with safely managed positions and no over-exposure. I still find it difficult to identify and avoid the races I lose on even with the help of analysing my P&Ls, for example there was one yesterday where the first two runners flew up and down around the 3.0 crossover in a wide range and it totally destroyed me:

bfc.png

Nowaday I will usually make 10-20% of my bank some days and then lose 20-50% of it on others. Some days like today it seems that every trade goes against me and Jolly Green's old posts which I have read several times describes my trading well. I am usually a patient person who understands maths and would never gamble with the odds not in my favour, yet I find it hard to control my emotions which let my trading down with impulsive clicking and overstaking after a string of losses. Bank management is one of the pillars of trading I need to work on.

I keep telling myself that with enough quality practice and reviewing I should make it eventually but it's disheartening to have put a good 2000+ hours into this and feel like even breakeven is a lifetime away. I enjoy it and feel like this is what I want to do especially in the current job climate, so I won't give up yet and will continue to try and manage my losses to avoid any significant financial damage. I suppose the place to start is to look for a setup I'm good at and try and keep patient and discliplined

I agree with everyone else that you appear to be making serious staking mistakes. That's the first place to look to improve. You might actually be a good trader apart from the money management.

It's also possible that trading doesnt suit you.

We don't talk about it much here but it's also possible to have an edge having prop bets rather than trading. Maybe that's something to look at.

[wearthefoxhat]

Going to post my trading journey here in the hope it helps me or anyone else reading. When I exhausted my matched betting accounts with bookmakers I started learning and practising pre-off racing and have been fascinated with it for the last 2 years. I had a decent amount of savings so after finishing my last job I decided to do this full-time to give it the best shot I could.

For the last 2 years I have been trading 7 days a week most weeks, I have had a lot of help from a profitable trader with calls and videos, have watched many of Betangel's videos 10-20 times every now and then, have read books such as Trading in the Zone, recorded my trading and sat up at night rewatching my trades and tracking my P&L, studied psychology and financial markets but I am still struggling to become profitable at the end of the week.

I estimate that I have traded somewhere between 10,000-12,000 races and in that time have had many false starts where I thought I could do it. I often notice new things and these do help but my results just aren't showing, some days I feel like none of it makes sense and others I feel like I'm doing it, taking those small losses and bigger profits with safely managed positions and no over-exposure. I still find it difficult to identify and avoid the races I lose on even with the help of analysing my P&Ls, for example there was one yesterday where the first two runners flew up and down around the 3.0 crossover in a wide range and it totally destroyed me:

bfc.png

Nowaday I will usually make 10-20% of my bank some days and then lose 20-50% of it on others. Some days like today it seems that every trade goes against me and Jolly Green's old posts which I have read several times describes my trading well. I am usually a patient person who understands maths and would never gamble with the odds not in my favour, yet I find it hard to control my emotions which let my trading down with impulsive clicking and overstaking after a string of losses. Bank management is one of the pillars of trading I need to work on.

I keep telling myself that with enough quality practice and reviewing I should make it eventually but it's disheartening to have put a good 2000+ hours into this and feel like even breakeven is a lifetime away. I enjoy it and feel like this is what I want to do especially in the current job climate, so I won't give up yet and will continue to try and manage my losses to avoid any significant financial damage. I suppose the place to start is to look for a setup I'm good at and try and keep patient and discliplined

i've been trying on and off for 5 years but still not profitable I dont give it my full attention anymore, but go through binges over a week or so and feel like i am learning more then it suddenly seems to go out the window again.

This is what I'm like when attempting full automation and trying/testing new rules/conditions. One argument is I'm not giving the processes enough time to pull around, but I'm quite quick at spotting something that doesn't work, or I don't fully understand.

I had to come to terms with what suited my "style" best, and stay within my comfort zone with regard to staking. Semi automation was better for me, allowing the entry point to be decided by a bot/software and manually manage the exit point, giving me an option to let it run, if in-play.

My preferred style was more swing than scalping in markets that "behaved" better and could be anticipated more. ie: football.

I also accepted that combining more conventional backing/laying methods with trading was okay too. In this case, some knowledge of the sport is useful and makes it fun to get involved. ie: Creating my own horse ratings on a spreadsheet and focussing on value odds, and/or poor fav's to L2B.

I also decided a couple of years ago to attend Peter Webbs' Masterclass course. (There maybe another one in the pipeline) Add in his excellent you-tube videos and the free to register Bet Angel academy, it gives everyone a fighting chance.

In the past, when something I worked on, researched and invested time and resources into, went to shite, I had to put in a box, reset/review and start with a blank piece of paper. There were some good things I had learned along the way, and picked up some bad habits, so I had to be honest with myself and cast them aside.

Winning consistently can also create a god complex and as soon as you think you're untouchable, the markets teach you a lesson. So the trick is working on the psychological aspects of gambling/trading is always a good reset. (I call it re-building the foundation)

Putting everything to one side for a week/2 weeks is sometimes a good idea. F.O.M.O. exists, so understand that there's will be plenty of sport/markets to learn about and be kind to yourself.

One thing is for sure, with this Covid shite we all have to deal with, finding something that can support working from home, is something to strive for.

[jamesg46]

Going to post my trading journey here in the hope it helps me or anyone else reading. When I exhausted my matched betting accounts with bookmakers I started learning and practising pre-off racing and have been fascinated with it for the last 2 years. I had a decent amount of savings so after finishing my last job I decided to do this full-time to give it the best shot I could.

For the last 2 years I have been trading 7 days a week most weeks, I have had a lot of help from a profitable trader with calls and videos, have watched many of Betangel's videos 10-20 times every now and then, have read books such as Trading in the Zone, recorded my trading and sat up at night rewatching my trades and tracking my P&L, studied psychology and financial markets but I am still struggling to become profitable at the end of the

Sounds like you are doing all the right things and reading all the right books.

I’ve been thinking about getting a professional trader to help me with calls and videos too. Who did you use? And did you have to pay, or was it somebody you know who took you under their experienced wing for free?

Its not really my place to tell people what they should or shouldn't do but....

Imo there is absolutely 100% definitely no need to pay for the time of a professional. One thing & the only thing I miss about Twitter is the Bet Angel feed. Peter posts gold nuggets on a regular basis, to the point where not so long back it was to the equivalent of having a free trading session with him for a whole afternoon.

People will offer others their perspective but there is no guarantee of understanding, it's the understanding that is priceless.... in summary, what I'm trying to get at is, the information is already there & its there in detail for free, sometimes as its happening.

Again, its definitely not for me to say do or don't, im just giving my opinion. Personally I've never used such a service, ive been very lucky, I've been able to pinch Peters time through meeting him, chatting with him & of course the main bulk of content that's made available through his time spent.

[xtrader16]

One of the reasons you are not being consistently successful is you haven't figured out why the markets are moving the way that they do.

I feel your frustration in spending day and night analysing your trading and looking at your P&L and banging your head against a brick wall. I literally banged my heand on my desk only last week (bad idea).

There are things that nobody is going to tell you. If this information got out into the public peoples trading profits would deteriorate. You have to find out what these things are before you start putting money into the ladders.

You can watch all the videos you want but they essentially tell you nothing that you actually need to know. Once you find the answer you will think is that it? Is that all I need to know but finding the answer is the hard part.

Good Luck on your journey, most people (I think) never get there. I might be one of them.

If you want a clue find out exactly why the Titanic ship sunk. I think you need to have a fundamental grasp on what exactly it is you are trading. Some people seem to think you can look at the ladders and they could contain a variety of different types of corn or wheat. These are Horse Racing markets and people tend to forget the fundamentals behind what they are trading. You really need to have a knowledge of what you are backing and laying. Some people, those who know more than you do, will dispute this and say it could be corn or wheat they dont care. But as a novice trade if you understand the complexities of the race you should understand what is going on in the ladder.

Ask yourself why something is drifting and why is another being backed apart from momentum.

[Kai]

The great thing about these types of threads and discussions is that a lot of people want to pitch in, especially when you honestly open up about stuff, so you get an opportunity to see how people think and you gain a bit of an insight into their perspectives and methods. As they say, many ways to skin a cat, and different things work for different people, which is the ultimate disclaimer I think, but you do get an option to pick up what you want or like.

People may not share everything in a single post and lay it all out with simple-to-follow instructions, but across a hundred posts it's a different story and you can get a good idea about their work and approaches, similarly to videos like Peter's where you won't get everything in a single video but may get something if you piece a lot of them together etc.

[alexmr2]

Thanks for all the good advice here. Today I have detached myself from the market emotionally by strictly sticking to one stake and a risk:reward ratio, which has allowed me to breakeven at worst (better than losing £50 in a day) and help me to see what I need to work on next. Considering almost all of my entries got matched and I took more small losses then double wins I think that I need more favourable entries. Logically there should be no reason why it is any harder to get further into the green than into the red right over the long-term right?

I've been through the same cycle countless times where I start to make some progress, get overconfident and push things unrealistically hard, only to end up back at square one. Then I realise that even the best traders can be successful by only taking a few ticks (not 20 every trade) and even the best ones scratch half of their trades, it takes a long time to accept you are going to be wrong half of the time if that is your strategy.

[Atho55]

Have you thought about putting your entry criteria into Guardian if possible and managing the trade manually once matched?

[alexmr2]

Imo there is absolutely 100% definitely no need to pay for the time of a professional

I agree, I suppose it could be compared to paying a celebrity gym instructor. You can pay all you want but 99% of the work is down to you at the end of the day. In trading it doesn't make much financial sense for the mentor to give up their time or true edge. I was fortunate to have some free help from someone I came across through FB groups (95% of the people on their don't have a clue), and having someone to talk to about trading benefits both of us in such a lonely game. Everyone else in the group gave up before they even started

[LeTiss]

I sympathise greatly

It's a major issue for everyone when going from part-time to self-employed. When you are picking little acorn green screens as a part-timer, they feel you with delight.....it's money on top of your main income

When you go self-employed though, little acorns aren't enough. You have bills to pay, so fall into the trap of overstaking or letting trades run too far, and all of a sudden a green screen has now become a red one

It's also easy to lose confidence. When part-time you can afford to be brash, as you know you can reimburse the bank when you get paid.......not when self-employed you can't. This can make you cautious, too cautious at times.

Trading is a balancing act between being confident, but not over confident

[JohnT]

It's a tough game Alex.

I don't understand why you think your trading should be profitable.