Trading What I see !?

[smallplayer]

You should be framing your trades on the traded range of the runner you're trading. And on what the prices of other runners in the market are doing.

Most serious traders don't use stop losses.

i believe you are completely correct Pat and some day, when I am good enough, I hope to be able to do away with my static 4 tick SL but until I am ready to trust myself completely, I need my exit in stone. I have only traded 8.3k races which is pretty much nothing I feel.

Problem with using stop losses is they can just add to your frustration. On days like today where there are lots of volatile markets there's a good chance that even when you're right, you'll get stopped out and then have to watch the price go where you thought it would go in the first place.

Think I was editing my post to say i used manual stops whilst you were replying. But yes, you are correct of course but I feel when starting out, if it goes against us, we kinda panic and cannot think clearly enough to decide if its gonna continue running away or come back. So I decided to go with fixed amounts of ticks as SL some time back and it took me from negative to positive. ok, I am nowhere near where I want to be, as I am still using small money, but at least I am consistent and profitable now which is a massive confidence booster and it keeps me in the game longer so i have a chance to learn. I feel, that as long as i am aware of the limitations of Sl's, that i can in time work on that. But I can't do that if I keep blowing banks and quit. I know it will be different for everyone, but that's just how i handled it.

[Morbius]

You should be framing your trades on the traded range of the runner you're trading. And on what the prices of other runners in the market are doing.

Most serious traders don't use stop losses.

whoa steady on tiger

The subject of stop losses is a rabbit hole that goes very deep. A lot of it is strategy and experience dependent. IB's and HF's for example often don't use them and especially in currency markets where market movements just create opportunities to buy more currency at better prices with their huge financial resources and open ended markets. Not using a stop loss with a bad strategy is a dangerous thing to do for a novice and will probably shorten the life expectancy of a bankroll.

But you are correct in that for many traders, learning how to do this can work very well. However many traders get this strategy wrong and end up keeping positions in markets that are going aggressively against them and never return. This is a big issue in a time sensitive market like an exchange

[alexmr2]

Problem with using stop losses is they can just add to your frustration. On days like today where there are lots of volatile markets there's a good chance that even when you're right, you'll get stopped out and then have to watch the price go where you thought it would go in the first place.

Agree, you have to make a split second decision depending on what is going on and the volatility of the market

Of course it's just psychological, but whenever I used an auto stoploss I often found myself getting paranoid that it was like a magnet for the price and that some bot was trading against it

[Korattt]

a video on stop losses by Euler

https://youtu.be/D_XG61V1UXk

[Trader Pat]

You should be framing your trades on the traded range of the runner you're trading. And on what the prices of other runners in the market are doing.

Most serious traders don't use stop losses.

whoa steady on tiger

The subject of stop losses is a rabbit hole that goes very deep. A lot of it is strategy and experience dependent. IB's and HF's for example often don't use them and especially in currency markets where market movements just create opportunities to buy more currency at better prices with their huge financial resources and open ended markets. Not using a stop loss with a bad strategy is a dangerous thing to do for a novice and will probably shorten the life expectancy of a bankroll.

But you are correct in that for many traders, learning how to do this can work very well. However many traders get this strategy wrong and end up keeping positions in markets that are going aggressively against them and never return. This is a big issue in a time sensitive market like an exchange

Yeah I realise that came across as a bit condescending, I didn't mean it to!

You don't want to be on the wrong side of moves that go aggressively against you and that is why the traded range is so important. You should have your exit point in mind before you even get involved in the market, especially if it breaks the traded range but it all depends on how big the range is and at what point within that range that you got involved in the market.

If you have trouble pulling the trigger to close a trade then stop losses have their place but its best to try and get used to closing positions manually as you will learn more and also it can help your confidence because you have manually closed your position and you're not relying on the software to do it.

[Bubace]

Experience is intellectual property so don't devalue it because it has value. Many investment banks value people with actual trading experience even if they lost because they have learned a lot of what not to do. You probably won't even notice the transformation from where you were at the outset to where you are now but the latest version of yourself will be vastly superior to where you began.

i do think i understand a bit more,
Just a little sign that i do would be nice , ive read before that you need to be involved in at least 10,000 markets before you can get a handle on it, a quick check shows ive only done just under 3,000, so some ways to go yet

Hope you are in for the long haul Bubace. I am on 8.3k to date and I can tell you, its a slooowwww journey!

haha well im a stuborn bugger, and they say you've not failed till you give up, and i dont intend to give up

[smallplayer]

i do think i understand a bit more,
Just a little sign that i do would be nice , ive read before that you need to be involved in at least 10,000 markets before you can get a handle on it, a quick check shows ive only done just under 3,000, so some ways to go yet

Hope you are in for the long haul Bubace. I am on 8.3k to date and I can tell you, its a slooowwww journey!

haha well im a stuborn bugger, and they say you've not failed till you give up, and i dont intend to give up

Good man. If you've made it to 3k races, then you are officially a member of the Stubborn Bugger club!

[Trader Pat]

Think I was editing my post to say i used manual stops whilst you were replying. But yes, you are correct of course but I feel when starting out, if it goes against us, we kinda panic and cannot think clearly enough to decide if its gonna continue running away or come back. So I decided to go with fixed amounts of ticks as SL some time back and it took me from negative to positive. ok, I am nowhere near where I want to be, as I am still using small money, but at least I am consistent and profitable now which is a massive confidence booster and it keeps me in the game longer so i have a chance to learn. I feel, that as long as i am aware of the limitations of Sl's, that i can in time work on that. But I can't do that if I keep blowing banks and quit. I know it will be different for everyone, but that's just how i handled it.

Protection of your bank is paramount so if its working for you and its stopping you from blowing banks then keep it up

Just don't become over reliant on them which can happen.

[Morbius]

You should be framing your trades on the traded range of the runner you're trading. And on what the prices of other runners in the market are doing.

Most serious traders don't use stop losses.

whoa steady on tiger

The subject of stop losses is a rabbit hole that goes very deep. A lot of it is strategy and experience dependent. IB's and HF's for example often don't use them and especially in currency markets where market movements just create opportunities to buy more currency at better prices with their huge financial resources and open ended markets. Not using a stop loss with a bad strategy is a dangerous thing to do for a novice and will probably shorten the life expectancy of a bankroll.

But you are correct in that for many traders, learning how to do this can work very well. However many traders get this strategy wrong and end up keeping positions in markets that are going aggressively against them and never return. This is a big issue in a time sensitive market like an exchange

Yeah I realise that came across as a bit condescending, I didn't mean it to!

You don't want to be on the wrong side of moves that go aggressively against you and that is why the traded range is so important. You should have your exit point in mind before you even get involved in the market, especially if it breaks the traded range but it all depends on how big the range is and at what point within that range that you got involved in the market.

If you have trouble pulling the trigger to close a trade then stop losses have their place but its best to try and get used to closing positions manually as you will learn more and also it can help your confidence because you have manually closed your position and you're not relying on the software to do it.

nah....it wasn't condescending mate and I never took it that way. You "speak" in a similar way to me so I get ya Nobody's posts read more ropey than mine when I read them back

In many ways there is a strong correlation between trading and poker and the assessment of range in both. The best poker players as well as the best traders just assess range better. It is a tough one though because some traders simply never develop the skill to not use stop losses. Many traders who were very successful swear by stop losses like Richard Dennis and William Eckhardt for example and the Turtle Program but then again many other successful traders refuse to use them. We could go on talking about this all night and not get to the bottom of it and I have been on the forum all day as it is

[smallplayer]

You should be framing your trades on the traded range of the runner you're trading. And on what the prices of other runners in the market are doing.

Most serious traders don't use stop losses.

whoa steady on tiger

The subject of stop losses is a rabbit hole that goes very deep. A lot of it is strategy and experience dependent. IB's and HF's for example often don't use them and especially in currency markets where market movements just create opportunities to buy more currency at better prices with their huge financial resources and open ended markets. Not using a stop loss with a bad strategy is a dangerous thing to do for a novice and will probably shorten the life expectancy of a bankroll.

But you are correct in that for many traders, learning how to do this can work very well. However many traders get this strategy wrong and end up keeping positions in markets that are going aggressively against them and never return. This is a big issue in a time sensitive market like an exchange

Yeah I realise that came across as a bit condescending, I didn't mean it to!

You don't want to be on the wrong side of moves that go aggressively against you and that is why the traded range is so important. You should have your exit point in mind before you even get involved in the market, especially if it breaks the traded range but it all depends on how big the range is and at what point within that range that you got involved in the market.

If you have trouble pulling the trigger to close a trade then stop losses have their place but its best to try and get used to closing positions manually as you will learn more and also it can help your confidence because you have manually closed your position and you're not relying on the software to do it.

Not condescending at all Pat. Tell it as it is!
If you are looking at a huge fast steamer and it has time to reverse, it obviously has entered new untraded territory so you have no range to gauge against..say you reckon it will retract big time..how many ticks will you generally allow it to go against you, or maybe to next big crossover point, etc, before you through in the towel and admit defeat. Bear in mind you are fast approaching the off and only time for one more move, so if you get it wrong and it doesn't reverse, you are gonna run out of time.

[Trader Pat]

Not condescending at all Pat. Tell it as it is!
If you are looking at a huge fast steamer and it has time to reverse, it obviously has entered new untraded territory so you have no range to gauge against..say you reckon it will retract big time..how many ticks will you generally allow it to go against you, or maybe to next big crossover point, etc, before you through in the towel and admit defeat. Bear in mind you are fast approaching the off and only time for one more move, so if you get it wrong and it doesn't reverse, you are gonna run out of time.

That's where risk v reward comes into the equation. If its moved a fair bit in already how much further is it likely to go and it is worth while risking it? If you've missed the move it sometimes makes more sense to just wait for the next one to come along. You also have to be careful not to fall into the trap of thinking every steamer will reverse, some don't especially if they're a favourite in a weak race. Some can keep coming in until the race jumps off. You also need to be able to tell the difference between a retracement and a reversal.

Just another piece of the puzzle to add to the fun and games!

[goat68]

Yes, back, I wanted price to go lower!

wanted?, we all want the market to confirm how we want but that’s not how it works, that’s maybe part of where you may be going wrong on occasion?

So interesting comment, I could have worded it "where I think on probability it will go"... Does that sound better or are you eluding to something more subtle?

[goat68]

Yes, back, I wanted price to go lower!

wanted?, we all want the market to confirm how we want but that’s not how it works, that’s maybe part of where you may be going wrong on occasion?

I think you've hit the nail on the head though, all this talk of stop loss is rubbish if your entries are not right....

[Korattt]

Yes, back, I wanted price to go lower!

wanted?, we all want the market to confirm how we want but that’s not how it works, that’s maybe part of where you may be going wrong on occasion?

So interesting comment, I could have worded it "where I think on probability it will go"... Does that sound better or are you eluding to something more subtle?

this will make you think, certainly did me

https://youtu.be/8LTZXiRBzn0

[goat68]

And I think my entries are dire... I just backed Jacattack in Newcastle 18:15 at 6.8 as I thought it was breaking out if it's range, within a second it was at 8, and then 11 !!!