Trading What I see !?

[speedyhamster]

If you are unable to trade without the slightest bit of emotional discomfort (specifically, fear), then you
have not learned how to accept the risks inherent in trading. This is a big problem, because to whatever
degree you haven't accepted the risk, is the same degree to which you will avoid the risk. Trying to
avoid something that is unavoidable will have disastrous effects on your ability to trade successfully.
Trading presents us with a fundamental paradox: How do we remain disciplined, focused, and
confident in the face of constant uncertainty? When you have learned how to "think" like a trader, that's
exactly what you'll be able to do. Learning how to redefine your trading activities in a way that allows
you to completely accept the risk is the key to thinking like a successful trader. Learning to accept the
risk is a trading skill—the most important skill you can learn. Yet it's rare that developing traders focus
any attention or expend any effort to learn it.
When you learn the trading skill of risk acceptance, the market will not be able to generate information
that you define or interpret as painful. If the information the market generates doesn't have the potential
to cause you emotional pain, there's nothing to avoid. It is just information, telling you what the
possibilities are. This is called an objective perspective—one that is not skewed or distorted by what
you are afraid is going to happen or not happen.

[goat68]

Realized I didn't quite tweak my bot quite right from yesterday, so had corrected it last night. It's had a smashin day today, 75%wins, and 11 wins in a row. But still down for the week cos of yesterday's rubbish!

[beermonsterman]

Realized I didn't quite tweak my bot quite right from yesterday, so had corrected it last night. It's had a smashin day today, 75%wins, and 11 wins in a row. But still down for the week cos of yesterday's rubbish!

Seems you are knocking on the door their buddy

[speedyhamster]

If you are unable to trade without the slightest bit of emotional discomfort (specifically, fear), then you
have not learned how to accept the risks inherent in trading. This is a big problem, because to whatever
degree you haven't accepted the risk, is the same degree to which you will avoid the risk. Trying to
avoid something that is unavoidable will have disastrous effects on your ability to trade successfully.
Trading presents us with a fundamental paradox: How do we remain disciplined, focused, and
confident in the face of constant uncertainty? When you have learned how to "think" like a trader, that's
exactly what you'll be able to do. Learning how to redefine your trading activities in a way that allows
you to completely accept the risk is the key to thinking like a successful trader. Learning to accept the
risk is a trading skill—the most important skill you can learn. Yet it's rare that developing traders focus
any attention or expend any effort to learn it.
When you learn the trading skill of risk acceptance, the market will not be able to generate information
that you define or interpret as painful. If the information the market generates doesn't have the potential
to cause you emotional pain, there's nothing to avoid. It is just information, telling you what the
possibilities are. This is called an objective perspective—one that is not skewed or distorted by what
you are afraid is going to happen or not happen.

forgot to put this is from trading in the zone by mark douglas

[speedyhamster]

Realized I didn't quite tweak my bot quite right from yesterday, so had corrected it last night. It's had a smashin day today, 75%wins, and 11 wins in a row. But still down for the week cos of yesterday's rubbish!

Seems you are knocking on the door their buddy

hope so

[Swamidee]

Re The Mark Douglas quote...

How could anyone not agree. Lose the emotion - or lose you pennies. But this is the age old dilemma. It is obviously true to successful and consistently profitable trading. But for anyone new or trying to make their way in this game how could you not have emotional attachment? After all, you're here reading about successes and failures, trying to glean each morsel of information that can turn your trading tide. Perhaps, you're looking at an unexpected lifestyle change and need to generate income from trading? Of course there are innumerable reasons why emotional attachment arises, and not just for the newcomer. (Though deep pockets go a long way to alleviating it - I suspect)
It's one thing to talk about emotion-free trading from the Warren Buffet Ivory Tower retirement villa, but quite another from the day to day wannabe.
I know this has been debated on these pages for many a long year. Few of even the more seasoned traders here, I would guess, are able to reign in their emotions especially on the more marginal trades.
But gambling, by it's nature, is an addiction. Trading, as we all know, is simply gambling on the outcome of price movement rather than event outcome, however well researched and analysed. Unless you 'know' that outcome in advance, you are gambling. It gets the adrenaline pumping and hey presto! The body's hard-wiring remembers that feeling and wants more.
Trading.. it's gets emotional!
Question is...when is that desire ever satiated? Can it be? What is our destination exactly?
oops.. going down the rabbit hole here.
Enjoy! ....Thats the key.

[ShaunWhite]

But gambling, by it's nature, is an addiction. Trading, as we all know, is simply gambling on the outcome of price movement rather than event outcome, however well researched and analysed. Unless you 'know' that outcome in advance, you are gambling. It gets the adrenaline pumping and hey presto! The body's hard-wiring remembers that feeling and wants more.
Trading.. it's gets emotional!
Question is...when is that desire ever satiated? Can it be? What is our destination exactly?
oops.. going down the rabbit hole here.

It's potentially addictive but how much so is down to the individual, some people get addicted to drink or pies and for others it's skydiving or gambling, it's not a given. And as for adrenaline, then if you're trading 'properly' there's no buzz to get hooked on, win £1.10, lose £1.00, win £1, lose £1.05. Tbh it's pretty dull when done right and losses are more likely to occur from needing some sort of buzz to keep it interesting than it being a natural part of it.

As for emotion in general, I think that's a problem losers have and it evaporates as you start winning. If you KNOW you have an edge and your balance proves it month after month, then you also know that individual results are irrelevent, if individual results are irrelevent, then individual results don't illicite an emotion.

Being unemotional won't make you a winner, but being a winner will make you unemotional.

[ShaunWhite]

Trading.. it's gets emotional!

Sorry to press a point Swamidee but if it's emotional then the issue isn't your psychology that needs changing, it's the triggers that need to be addressed. Imo what you need to do is trade within what's financially insignificant to you, control losses as a proportion of a 'normal' trade, and work on the fundamentals of your edge so you understand that winning isn't an adrenaline fueled "gamble" every 10 minutes. Eg you see people say they 'lost the whole week's profit' so they've downed tools or gone on tilt. Well either that was a disproportionatly large stake, an uncontrolled loss, or the profit was only marginal anyway compared to their natural varience. Nothing much there to get emotional about, just errors and/or a lack of perspective. Chamomile tea, visualisations and deep breathing ain't gonna fix either.

[LeTiss]

I still get excited when I get a massive green

I've found that when I switch off completely and become unemotional, I become bored and a little reckless

[beermonsterman]

Trading.. it's gets emotional!

Sorry to press a point Swamidee but if it's emotional then the issue isn't your psychology that needs changing, it's the triggers that need to be addressed. Imo what you need to do is trade within what's financially insignificant to you, control losses as a proportion of a 'normal' trade, and work on the fundamentals of your edge so you understand that winning isn't an adrenaline fueled "gamble" every 10 minutes. Eg you see people say they 'lost the whole week's profit' so they've downed tools or gone on tilt. Well either that was a disproportionatly large stake, an uncontrolled loss, or the profit was only marginal anyway compared to their natural varience. Nothing much there to get emotional about, just errors and/or a lack of perspective. Chamomile tea, visualisations and deep breathing ain't gonna fix either.

You just described me their I have altered everything completely to exactly what you are saying here and believe me from first hand experience Shaun is spot on correct
I used to go in with 100 percent of my bank and when things went wrong i would chase the loss it is almost like I was possesd and had no control i would go full tilt and loose the lot then come back to reality and ask what the f--k did I just do and all that was all down to using large stakes
I changed my attitude dramatically so i put another £100 in betfair and used 2% stakes which takes all the fun out of it to the point it board me half to death but then started to notice my attitude changing
Sorry to put my penny worth in I just couldn't help it when I read this as it was me and not that long ago too

[Trader Pat]

Some really good points made by Shaun and Beer above. For me trading the horses today I have completely no emotional attachment and it can be a battle to keep away the boredom but the tennis earlier this morning I had an emotional attachment because it was going well and I was enjoying it. (The green book I mean, not so much the match itself because I'm a Nadal fan) Now if I hadn't have made a penny from that match and it went against me from the moment I got involved in the market I would have had zero emotional attachment because I was very comfortable with the stakes I was using.

If you feel fear when trading then you're over staking, and probably by a lot. If the market moves against you and you panic then you need to reduce your stakes. As for "emotional discomfort" I haven't felt that in a long time and that's because I just kept reducing stakes to the point where I was very comfortable and didn't overreact if the market moved a few ticks against me. I had to reduce stakes practically to minimum before being able to build them up again.

[beermonsterman]

Some really good points made by Shaun and Beer above. For me trading the horses today I have completely no emotional attachment and it can be a battle to keep away the boredom but the tennis earlier this morning I had an emotional attachment because it was going well and I was enjoying it. (The green book I mean, not so much the match itself because I'm a Nadal fan) Now if I hadn't have made a penny from that match and it went against me from the moment I got involved in the market I would have had zero emotional attachment because I was very comfortable with the stakes I was using.

If you feel fear when trading then you're over staking, and probably by a lot. If the market moves against you and you panic then you need to reduce your stakes. As for "emotional discomfort" I haven't felt that in a long time and that's because I just kept reducing stakes to the point where I was very comfortable and didn't overreact if the market moved a few ticks against me. I had to reduce stakes practically to minimum before being able to build them up again.

seems like all part of the learning process but I can relate to the above and that's good advice use stakes that dont trigger emotion as it will make you attached to your trades which usually end badly

[ruthlessimon]

But for anyone new or trying to make their way in this game how could you not have emotional attachment?

Knowing the maximum drawdown of your strategies helps reduce the pressure. Lets say you do a backtest & over the previous year a strategy made £10K, with a maximum drawdown of -£1K. Are you comfortable with a -£2K loss off the bat? If no, your stakes are too high. Imo trading only becomes gambling when the losses exceed what you expected.

[LeTiss]

But for anyone new or trying to make their way in this game how could you not have emotional attachment?

Knowing the maximum drawdown of your strategies helps reduce the pressure. Lets say you do a backtest & over the previous year a strategy made £10K, with a maximum drawdown of -£1K. Are you comfortable with a -£2K loss off the bat? If no, your stakes are too high. Imo trading only becomes gambling when the losses exceed what you expected.

I agree with that. Before the days of exchanges, I'd looked into spread betting, as there seemed an opportunity to get greater value than fixed odds betting

I learned something very quickly though......it's nice knowing what you're going to win, but it's even nicer knowing what you're going to lose

If your trading losses exceed what you're comfortable with, then you need to revise your stakes

[Swamidee]

Being unemotional won't make you a winner, but being a winner will make you unemotional

I really like that!

Perhaps that's the real issue here. Without that edge and the assurance that comes from a proven method, one is always in unknown territory. Great responses.