I have been trading US horses for a while now after work just for a bit of extra cash - can make £20 - £80 a night with little stress and not much thinking.
Every weekend I look at the UK markets and have a go on them and every time I fail miserably. It's a bit like a comedy show when I trade the UK racing (Though i'm the only one not laughing), EVERYTHING I do goes wrong. I'm sure people have been in my position and it is clear to me I'm fundamentally just not getting it. I'm constantly battling my thoughts - don't go against the trend (Then the price goes the other way), It must can't carry on drifting forever (It does) - all of which I'm sure are amateur mistakes - right less of the moaning...
As it's clear I don't have any kind of natural talent for it, I've been trying to think of a more methodical way to try and create a set of 'rules' which I can use as a pointer as to what's going to happen...
My question is really, does anyone else trade like this, or are people more instinctive? Those that do analyze the market before getting involved, what kind of variables do they look for? Time before race seems to be very important, price history charts - are they relevant?
If anyone has any advice it would be helpful. I imagine something like this has been posted before so if anyone could point me in the direction of any useful links, again, that would be helpful.
Cheers!
God I hate UK markets
first perfect scratching. i assume you must be fairly ok at scratching as you trade the yank markets with success (personally i would not touch 99% of them).
on the british markets once the money as come in, they can move real quick (as you no doubt know), use £2 stakes and put 2 quid into the market and try not to lose it. the moment it goes against you or you think it will scratch at the price or a tick or 2 lower (if you cant scratch 1 or 2 ticks lower cause the price as moved straight through you just get out, press the “c” key which will close you out at best price available and cancel any bets waiting to be matched). if you think your going get matched and the price will go through you, try and pull it before you get matched and be ready to scratch a tick or so lower if you don’t pull it quick enough. the idea is not to win or lose but stay even. you have got to get used to the speed and flow the prices move at. also don’t go in to early, wait till a decent amount as come into the market and the price is stable. don’t trade when the price is moving all over the place. also close out red up or green up before the off, about 10 secs should do. if you GO IN RUNNING YOU WILL LOSE. you may get away with it for a while but, sooner rather then later you will lose. if you go in running to get out of a trade (red or green), you will only develop an extremely bad habit, which you will possibly find hard if not impossible to break. best not develop a very bad habit to start with.
once your ok with 2 quid, up it to a fiver, and then a tenner etc., bearing in mind from 2 quid stake to 20 quid stakes will probably take you a couple of hundred races to become ok/comfortable at it.
don’t do the irish markets, nothing wrong with irish racing, but they are less liquid then the british and tend to be more jumpy, and the money can come in very late (but much better than the american ones).
don’t set any targets at all, have zero expectations, then you will not get frustrated and be tempted to try things your not yet ready for. just learn to scratch.
also look in the newbie’s section and in particular have a look at james1st post, trading in the dark i think it’s titled, probably a good post to start from.
on the british markets once the money as come in, they can move real quick (as you no doubt know), use £2 stakes and put 2 quid into the market and try not to lose it. the moment it goes against you or you think it will scratch at the price or a tick or 2 lower (if you cant scratch 1 or 2 ticks lower cause the price as moved straight through you just get out, press the “c” key which will close you out at best price available and cancel any bets waiting to be matched). if you think your going get matched and the price will go through you, try and pull it before you get matched and be ready to scratch a tick or so lower if you don’t pull it quick enough. the idea is not to win or lose but stay even. you have got to get used to the speed and flow the prices move at. also don’t go in to early, wait till a decent amount as come into the market and the price is stable. don’t trade when the price is moving all over the place. also close out red up or green up before the off, about 10 secs should do. if you GO IN RUNNING YOU WILL LOSE. you may get away with it for a while but, sooner rather then later you will lose. if you go in running to get out of a trade (red or green), you will only develop an extremely bad habit, which you will possibly find hard if not impossible to break. best not develop a very bad habit to start with.
once your ok with 2 quid, up it to a fiver, and then a tenner etc., bearing in mind from 2 quid stake to 20 quid stakes will probably take you a couple of hundred races to become ok/comfortable at it.
don’t do the irish markets, nothing wrong with irish racing, but they are less liquid then the british and tend to be more jumpy, and the money can come in very late (but much better than the american ones).
don’t set any targets at all, have zero expectations, then you will not get frustrated and be tempted to try things your not yet ready for. just learn to scratch.
also look in the newbie’s section and in particular have a look at james1st post, trading in the dark i think it’s titled, probably a good post to start from.
Hi I,
The scratch advice in to75ne's post is really useful, a key point in my opinion.
I suspect that trading is like acquiring any other skill, it takes time and patience and if you've got the US racing cracked then you've got your tuition fees paid for.
Cheers, P
You're right, there are other people in your position. If you look at the "SATURDAY" thread you'll see that I have been a regular contributor. I'm just beginning to show signs of coming out of it after 20 months (a long time I know, but that's a combination of being a bit thick and enjoying trading win or lose, reducing the incentive to improve). For some time I've been using the dogs to recover my horse losses. I'll trade horses until I lose a bit then switch to dogs to "get my losings back". I've come to the conclusion that the more cash in a market the better the traders playing and the less likely I am to be able to "beat" them (I can "beat" the dogs as long as there is hardly any liquidity, but when there is more money I experience the same results as the horses. Incidentally I like the Irish racing, the lower liquidity makes it similar to the dogs, to me).Every weekend I look at the UK markets and have a go on them and every time I fail miserably. It's a bit like a comedy show when I trade the UK racing (Though i'm the only one not laughing), EVERYTHING I do goes wrong. I'm sure people have been in my position and it is clear to me I'm fundamentally just not getting it. I'm constantly battling my thoughts - don't go against the trend (Then the price goes the other way), It must can't carry on drifting forever (It does) - all of which I'm sure are amateur mistakes - right less of the moaning...
The scratch advice in to75ne's post is really useful, a key point in my opinion.
I suspect that trading is like acquiring any other skill, it takes time and patience and if you've got the US racing cracked then you've got your tuition fees paid for.
Cheers, P
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JollyGreen
- Posts: 2047
- Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:06 am
I don't touch the US markets because there simply isn't enough liquidity. Can I ask what goes wrong when you try the UK markets? Perhaps if you can explain the error I could suggest the next thing for you to try.
All markets are different, if you ride a motorcycle like myself (Yamaha Fazer 600) you can bet your bottom dollar i wouldnt be able to ride a Suzuki 600 aswell, why because it has different road handleing, markets are the same when it comes to trading. I can make some money off us racing, but i dont ever put the stakes through that i do on uk markets, but i dont touch them no more as my skill and focus set is on one market. British and Irish pre race trading. Because you maybe good at one market you just cant switch to another type of market and expect the same skill level you where your strike rate is high. What to75ne said is absoultly right basically you have to start again £2 stake till you can fatham the market
Good luck in your journey thou, am still traveling but its getting faster and more smoother
Good luck in your journey thou, am still traveling but its getting faster and more smoother
Thanks for the responses...couple of things got me thinking.
JollyGreen asks what my errors are. If he'd have asked today I'd have laughed and said everything, but after analyzing some of my losing trades, I think one of my major issues is that I don't scratch/small loss trade enough as they other posters mention. I'll back a drifter when I think it's about to steam back in but it will keep drifting - rather than get out for a tick or two loss, I just leave it convinced it will come back. As it goes further out I panic and get out for a big loss. Sure enough, as soon as I do, BOOM, the price flys back in as I suspected and I'm left slapping my head.
Originally I thought I was going wrong by not staying in the trade and waiting for it to come back in, but now I'm thinking the simple thing here would have been to get out with the small loss, bide my time, and put my bet in at the higher price and ride the steam?!
After I wrote this original post, I had a break and had a little go at Wolverhampton. Just before I had read Adam Heathcote's and Peter's blogs for a bit of inspiration and had a bit of a Eureka moment where I realised how stupid I'd been trading. They kept mentioning 'opportunities'. I realised that I'm going in markets and simply thinking, "right, Up or down"?
Anyway, I played it much more patient and actually came out with a bit of a profit!!!
Gonna have a read of the suggested trading in the dark post shortly. Just to be clear, I'm not expecting miracles from this, I do alright out of other markets and have done this long enough to know what a pain it can be, UK Horses it seems are my nemesis and I'm determined to get one over on it!
PS: US Horses are so much easier. As long as you have ATR. I usually trade the gaps which I suppose is the most useless possible strategy for UK Horses. You do get some good movements on shorter prices though, and I can easily throw in £150 back on a steamer in a good race. Had a decent night tonight and I had the national winner so despite the awful initial UK trading, it hasn't been so bad overall...
JollyGreen asks what my errors are. If he'd have asked today I'd have laughed and said everything, but after analyzing some of my losing trades, I think one of my major issues is that I don't scratch/small loss trade enough as they other posters mention. I'll back a drifter when I think it's about to steam back in but it will keep drifting - rather than get out for a tick or two loss, I just leave it convinced it will come back. As it goes further out I panic and get out for a big loss. Sure enough, as soon as I do, BOOM, the price flys back in as I suspected and I'm left slapping my head.
Originally I thought I was going wrong by not staying in the trade and waiting for it to come back in, but now I'm thinking the simple thing here would have been to get out with the small loss, bide my time, and put my bet in at the higher price and ride the steam?!
After I wrote this original post, I had a break and had a little go at Wolverhampton. Just before I had read Adam Heathcote's and Peter's blogs for a bit of inspiration and had a bit of a Eureka moment where I realised how stupid I'd been trading. They kept mentioning 'opportunities'. I realised that I'm going in markets and simply thinking, "right, Up or down"?
Anyway, I played it much more patient and actually came out with a bit of a profit!!!
Gonna have a read of the suggested trading in the dark post shortly. Just to be clear, I'm not expecting miracles from this, I do alright out of other markets and have done this long enough to know what a pain it can be, UK Horses it seems are my nemesis and I'm determined to get one over on it!
PS: US Horses are so much easier. As long as you have ATR. I usually trade the gaps which I suppose is the most useless possible strategy for UK Horses. You do get some good movements on shorter prices though, and I can easily throw in £150 back on a steamer in a good race. Had a decent night tonight and I had the national winner so despite the awful initial UK trading, it hasn't been so bad overall...
The u.s racing markets are by far the easiest markets to profit from imo and the uk racing by far the hardest.
So either stick to what your doing and forget about uk racing or be prepared for a long hard and maybe expensive apprenticeship. It certainly can be done in toime though.
So either stick to what your doing and forget about uk racing or be prepared for a long hard and maybe expensive apprenticeship. It certainly can be done in toime though.
I'm always going to be tempted by the UK markets, so I'm determined to crack them rather than keep popping in, getting battered and coming back out.
Money isn't really an issue, as one of the posters said earlier, other sports trading covers any losses I would incur on UK racing whilst I'm cracking it. I'm self employed, so can throw some time at it and still make my wages, so I'm in a good position.
It's becoming more of an obsession and a challenge than a way to make money! - but it's difficult to know how to improve when you're not entirely sure what you're looking for - ie why the market moves as it does at those specific times.
Which brings me back to my original post, which was a question about trading 'style'. I am torn between just watching the markets and trying to get a 'feel' for them, or sitting there with a pen and paper, writing down numbers and using and looking for mathematical pointers on entry and exit points.
What does everyone do?
Money isn't really an issue, as one of the posters said earlier, other sports trading covers any losses I would incur on UK racing whilst I'm cracking it. I'm self employed, so can throw some time at it and still make my wages, so I'm in a good position.
It's becoming more of an obsession and a challenge than a way to make money! - but it's difficult to know how to improve when you're not entirely sure what you're looking for - ie why the market moves as it does at those specific times.
Which brings me back to my original post, which was a question about trading 'style'. I am torn between just watching the markets and trying to get a 'feel' for them, or sitting there with a pen and paper, writing down numbers and using and looking for mathematical pointers on entry and exit points.
What does everyone do?
Try and scalp for one tick and scratch when it appears to be going against you, using minimum stakes. Then when your comfortable doing that, try for 2 ticks then 3, always scratching when things appear to be going against you .
As jimrobo says having a feel for the market is key, by scalping you are in effect watching markets at the same time. And over time you will start recognising patterns, trends etc. Try and work out where backers will not back any lower, and layers are reluctant to lay any higher. These can occur at obvious changes in odds e.g. At 3 (2/1) and 4 (3/1) but also at traditional prices like 9/4 (3.25), 10/3 (4.3) depending on the market. These can be points where things may change. Try over time to find some sense/order to what’s happening.
I know it’s not as easy as it sounds as the markets are constantly changing but with enough time and using small stakes, it will start making sense. If your pc as enough guts you could record your trades and review them later or record markets that you cant/did not trade for that matter.
I think you should be very careful about becoming obsessed, that could cause problems (obsessions not just in trading but in anything tend to be destructive). You would be best to have no expectations, treat as a complex puzzle that as no defined time limit to solve. And most importantly if you don’t like/enjoy doing it, or get frustrated after an hour or so, STOP.
As jimrobo says having a feel for the market is key, by scalping you are in effect watching markets at the same time. And over time you will start recognising patterns, trends etc. Try and work out where backers will not back any lower, and layers are reluctant to lay any higher. These can occur at obvious changes in odds e.g. At 3 (2/1) and 4 (3/1) but also at traditional prices like 9/4 (3.25), 10/3 (4.3) depending on the market. These can be points where things may change. Try over time to find some sense/order to what’s happening.
I know it’s not as easy as it sounds as the markets are constantly changing but with enough time and using small stakes, it will start making sense. If your pc as enough guts you could record your trades and review them later or record markets that you cant/did not trade for that matter.
I think you should be very careful about becoming obsessed, that could cause problems (obsessions not just in trading but in anything tend to be destructive). You would be best to have no expectations, treat as a complex puzzle that as no defined time limit to solve. And most importantly if you don’t like/enjoy doing it, or get frustrated after an hour or so, STOP.
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aligammack
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Wed Apr 15, 2009 2:49 pm
If you are making profits from the US markets then you should already have good foundations to make the UK market profitable.
From reading your post and especially your posts title I believe that your biggest hurdle is your mind set when approaching the UK races. It seems to me that you have told yourself that you can't trade the UK and therefore you have no confidence. I believe that our state of mind is one of the most important aspects of successful trading. Without confidence you will double guess yourself and fail to see the opportunities you would have seen if you were "in the zone"
I suggest comparing your expectations and confidence while trading the US to your limiting beliefs while trading the UK.
You seem to already have a certain trading skill set but all you lack is confidence when trading a different market.
From reading your post and especially your posts title I believe that your biggest hurdle is your mind set when approaching the UK races. It seems to me that you have told yourself that you can't trade the UK and therefore you have no confidence. I believe that our state of mind is one of the most important aspects of successful trading. Without confidence you will double guess yourself and fail to see the opportunities you would have seen if you were "in the zone"
I suggest comparing your expectations and confidence while trading the US to your limiting beliefs while trading the UK.
You seem to already have a certain trading skill set but all you lack is confidence when trading a different market.
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superfrank
- Posts: 2762
- Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:28 pm
What other sports markets does everyone trade?
I make my money from the UK nags, and I'm interested to know where all this easy money is?!!
I love racing so am happy spending my afternoons watching and trading it, but I loathe tennis and don't think I could spend hours on end sitting through that.
I traded the golf last night and that was quite easy, but I suspect that was because of a great market with so many players vying for the lead.
I make my money from the UK nags, and I'm interested to know where all this easy money is?!!
I love racing so am happy spending my afternoons watching and trading it, but I loathe tennis and don't think I could spend hours on end sitting through that.
I traded the golf last night and that was quite easy, but I suspect that was because of a great market with so many players vying for the lead.