Trading What I see !?

Learn sports betting strategies and discuss key factors to consider when placing a bet.
Post Reply
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 10445
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

wearthefoxhat wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 12:32 pm
I believe PW also uses signals to confirm or unconfirm his decision making.
I think everyone uses some sort of mental checklist (signals) and the more of those that align the more confidence/stake/liability you commit to. But everyone probably has their own unique blend of herbs and spices behind their decisions. 😊
jamesg46
Posts: 3771
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:05 pm

goat68 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:43 pm
ShaunWhite wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:23 pm
goat68 wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:54 pm
i'm only talking strategies that try to signal a +ev move over 1min or so
"only" a minute or so :shock: How about starting at 1 or 2s, afterall a string of 2s predictions IS a prediction over a minute.

I'd be interested to find out why you think a 1 minute prediction is possible? Even manual traders with all their intuition and additional information would struggle do 1 minute forecasts anything like reliably, unless one of them can say otherwise.
So Peter and co are in trades of several minutes... but yes i've realized it doesn't seem possible.
Equally I don't really get the 1second time period either... the price hardly moves in 1 second typically, but I guess a stable scalp it doesn't have to.
The rolling high and low baf Dallas made is pretty handy, you can store the high & lows of 30 second time frames (or whatever you like) & then look to narrow your trade time window down to 5 or 10s to take a scalp of the rolling high or low. You could even broaden further to find directional bias and look at periods starting from 5 mins to find directional bias then start narrowing the time frame down to 30 second periods for highs and lows and then down to 5s periods to take scalps of those highs and lows.
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

So being busy backtesting and a few live bot attempts to see behaviour of a scalper type bot. I took the rolling high/low idea and the idea of having a "signal" that relates to my high and low "value". The signal is a metric roughly indicating backing/laying, and my current bot basically takes the SMA(10second) and SMA(40second) of it and back's when above lays when below. But can't make it turn a profit. What I typically see in backtesting is lots of small losses due to volatility, or the indicator wobbles for very little real price moment causing more spread loss....frustrating.
Back to drawing board again...
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

I guess it all comes down to how can you predict "crowd" opinion?
But I think now with more and more sophisticated punters and botters out there the "crowd" is actually quite clever, and the greater the proportion of "clever" crowd I suspect makes markets more volatile and unpredictable, such that if you try and create a bot that triggers off market technicals you're always going to lose.. I probably need to find a "trigger" outside the market, like (i've just made this up!) : "In the news today the BBC mentioned the Budget coming up...", 2nd fav in the first race today is a horse called "Low Budget", BACK IT !!
So I will create a bot that scrapes BBC web pages, sticks each headline into a "Name Mangler", then matches them to horses running today.....what do you reckon?
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Blimey it's midnight! been staring at graphs, stats and code too long.... Zzzzz
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 10445
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

goat68 wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:34 pm
What I typically see in backtesting is ...
You won't be able to backtest offering without a good simulator or at the very least some fill rate data.
Last edited by ShaunWhite on Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
jamesg46
Posts: 3771
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:05 pm

Screw waiting to be matched.

Give your automation a set of gloves, chuck it in the ring (literally) and tell it to punch when there is weakness at the high or at low. Test the money sat waiting & if you've got direction & momentum on your side, weakness on the opposite side go for the uppercut, take the money thats there, maybe there is a reason for little resistance, maybe people are scared to enter the ring at that moment in time.

Make you own fill rate :lol: & backtesting is like watching a porn movie in attempt to get the porn star pregnant... how do you even know you're not back testing the anal category... chuck back testing in the bin, you're wasting your life, forward not backwards.
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

jamesg46 wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:06 am
Screw waiting to be matched.

Give your automation a set of gloves, chuck it in the ring (literally) and tell it to punch when there is weakness at the high or at low. Test the money sat waiting & if you've got direction & momentum on your side, weakness on the opposite side go for the uppercut, take the money thats there, maybe there is a reason for little resistance, maybe people are scared to enter the ring at that moment in time.

Make you own fill rate :lol: & backtesting is like watching a porn movie in attempt to get the porn star pregnant... how do you even know you're not back testing the anal category... chuck back testing in the bin, you're wasting your life, forward not backwards.
I like your attitude James!
So even before you said that ive tweaked today's bot to take best market rather than offer reverse, lets see how it compares...
User avatar
napshnap
Posts: 1227
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:21 am

goat68 wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:34 pm
So being busy backtesting and a few live bot attempts to see behaviour of a scalper type bot. I took the rolling high/low idea and the idea of having a "signal" that relates to my high and low "value". The signal is a metric roughly indicating backing/laying, and my current bot basically takes the SMA(10second) and SMA(40second) of it and back's when above lays when below. But can't make it turn a profit. What I typically see in backtesting is lots of small losses due to volatility, or the indicator wobbles for very little real price moment causing more spread loss....frustrating.
Back to drawing board again...
I've tried to trade SMA (20s and 60s) crossings manually 2-3mins before official start-time. First few weeks result was impressive and then it slowly degraded to modest result, then I kinda got disappointed and decided to put it to the back of the drawer.
What I remember it's that type of a race (if we are taking about UK racing) is critical.

Maybe try something with VWAP (not to be confused with VWMA) and long-period SMA -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZRt-miYr2I.
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

napshnap wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:59 am
goat68 wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:34 pm
So being busy backtesting and a few live bot attempts to see behaviour of a scalper type bot. I took the rolling high/low idea and the idea of having a "signal" that relates to my high and low "value". The signal is a metric roughly indicating backing/laying, and my current bot basically takes the SMA(10second) and SMA(40second) of it and back's when above lays when below. But can't make it turn a profit. What I typically see in backtesting is lots of small losses due to volatility, or the indicator wobbles for very little real price moment causing more spread loss....frustrating.
Back to drawing board again...
I've tried to trade SMA (20s and 60s) crossings manually 2-3mins before official start-time. First few weeks result was impressive and then it slowly degraded to modest result, then I kinda got disappointed and decided to put it to the back of the drawer.
What I remember it's that type of a race (if we are taking about UK racing) is critical.

Maybe try something with VWAP (not to be confused with VWMA) and long-period SMA -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZRt-miYr2I.
thank you for the tips
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

On a slightly different aspect. I'm going to try and spend less time in the evening staring at charts and stats, I think too long a time at once confuses my thinking.... Fresher shorter bursts I think. I should follow my own advice on Marathon training, concentrate just as much on "recovery", don't stress the body too much at a time.
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 10445
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

goat68 wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 3:07 pm
On a slightly different aspect. I'm going to try and spend less time in the evening staring at charts and stats, I think too long a time at once confuses my thinking.... Fresher shorter bursts I think. I should follow my own advice on Marathon training, concentrate just as much on "recovery", don't stress the body too much at a time.
Targeted bursts, with simple questions and definative answers. Explore the influence of every metric regardless of each one alone being profitable. Then when you find a contender (small loser or a breakeven) you can feed what matters and more importantly what doesn't into the mix to refine it. Establish a methodology, apply it conscientiously and eventually you'll find something. A haphazard approach will mean you miss things and have a desk full of half finished ideas, and it will all have been a waste of time and money.
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

This is driving me mad... so here's one of my latest charts, Doncaster 15:20 Nov Hcap today, top 4favs. Volume starts increasing from 7mins, but then prices just go randomly everywhere til the off... where are the opportunities there? none maybe? Looking carefully you can see Black&Green and Blue&Red pairs both mirror each other. But can't really see what you could have anticipated?
market_Doncaster 18th Mar - 15_20 3m Nov Hcap Hrd.jpg
User avatar
goat68
Posts: 2038
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:53 pm

Ok, going to try something random for tomorrow, this is tomorrows strategy:
- Race market contains "Nov" or "Mdn"
- Pick 2nd Fav at 4 Mins before off
- If price above VWAP, Lay
- If price below VWAP, Back
- Green at off

Simple :-)
User avatar
ShaunWhite
Posts: 10445
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am

goat68 wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:11 pm
But can't really see what you could have anticipated?
If you can't see anything tradable you sit on your hands, and no single strategy is applicable to all markets anyway (well no single strategy you're likely to find soon). You're only looking to get about 55%+ right and even the best might only be making a profit on 75-80%. It's an imprescice science with outcomes expressed as probabilities rather than binaries. If that race doesn't comply with a theory you've had it really doesn't matter in isolation.
Post Reply

Return to “Betfair trading strategies”