Non-runner, runner, withdrawn...what is happening?

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JollyGreen
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They could make the non-runner issue much easier for everyone. When I read about the problems Peter had yesterday I started to draft this reply. I realised I should put it in a separate thread so here it is. Please bear in mind I thought of this on the fly as I typed it and I am sure with consultation it could be setup.

On the flat, if a horse enters the stalls, the gate closes behind him and the main handler raises his arm to say ready, any horse that does not start should be declared a runner. The only exception should be a horse(s) playing up resulting in the jockey not being mounted or in the "ready" position. For example if a horse is rearing badly the call for a start should not be made. If un-readiness ( is that a word :D ) occurs prior to the "ready" shout then the horse should either be removed from the stalls or the jockey remounted to allow the "ready" call.

As for loading a horse, there should be 3 attempts allowed to load. After attempt 2 if the horse looks recalcitrant the starter or his assistant should issue a warning that last chance is imminent. An orange indicator could be attached to the runner. If the horse fails to load on the 3rd attempt a red blanket/cover/ribbon should be attached to the horse to indicate he is now a non runner.

This may seem harsh but really it is quite simple. The trainer should be made to perform stalls testing more often to the point where the horse is used to the stalls and not overly upset by them. I appreciate the full stress cannot be created in tests and practice but it is clear that this is not being done by trainers. Some argue that they need to get the horses fit and fast but what is the point of that if the horse then plays up, won't load and then ends up as a non-runner. We all know that some horses end up having to pass a stalls test should they fail to load or be problematic or be reported by a starter so this is nothing new. It just needs more attention to detail from the trainers and these problems would be reduced.

I know some will say that horses are not machines and I am fully aware of that. However, a horse causes problems because it is nervous, anxious about the surroundings at the start. They are unfamiliar and unnatural so some are bound to become upset. The more they practice and become familiar the less likely they are to cause issues.

On the jumps there are no stalls so it is a case of the horses circling in a a collection area. The starter or assistant should then notify jockeys that they have 30 seconds or 1 minute (they can consult to agree) before they are asked to enter the pre-race start area. This area could be 100 yards from the actual start line. When the instruction from the starter is given to file out all horses should make their way to the pre-start area and be given a preset time to perform this. If a horse refuses to leave the collection area it will be given a warning that it has 1 minute (can be consultation to agree time) to make it's way to the pre-start area. If it does not make it to this area within the allotted time then it is declared a non-runner. If it makes it to the pre-start area then it will be made ready and asked to move towards the start. If it then plays up again and does not move forward then it is declared a runner.

Again this may sound a bit clinical but let's face it we currently have nothing to go on. The horse is on the track he's not on the track. He was under starter's orders, he wasn't under starter's orders. It's all a complete mess and there is no structure.

Some will argue it will all take too long with predetermined times in the collection and pre-start area but let's be honest, how many races start on time? Instead of the starters standing around having a chat they could be timing the proceedings and giving structure to things.

I am sure that once these rules are in place, trainers will know what is expected of them. They will have structure to work with and will have redress should their horse incorrectly be declared withdrawn or a non-runner. At the moment there is nothing and anything can be said to justify a decision.
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Dobbin
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Hi Jollygreen,

The main thing to remember is that horse racing existed long before online traders.

We have to fall in line not racing.

Horses are horses and not robots.

It is a Sport that is for the enjoyment of those who love horse racing.

The fact that races can be traded by others is a side issue.

Dobbin
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JollyGreen
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This is NOT looking at it from just a trader's point of view and I mentioned horses are not machines.

The main point is there is NO structure to it at the moment and this upsets punters, trainers, owners, bookies et al! The suggestions would benefit everyone because they would know what is expected of them. At the moment there is no structure just some fluffy words offered when it goes South - let's face it there are plenty of occasions when it goes South!

I have been following racing for many years and I have friends who owned hundreds of horses. You will notice I said owned in the past tense because they are slowly leaving the sport. They are sick and tired of having no voice and no redress when "authorities" make decisions or cock-ups. Hell, I even owned shares in a few horses and it was a complete joke in the end. The sport is run by the few for the few whereas it should be run by the few who consult with many to ensure an enjoyable sport.

If there is no consultation and as you suggest we all "fall into line with racing" then we will continue along the same path to self destruction with trainers revolting at low prize money etc. Do you think racing is improving or in decline?
Last edited by JollyGreen on Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JollyGreen
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Dobbin wrote:Hi Jollygreen,

It is a Sport that is for the enjoyment of those who love horse racing.

The fact that races can be traded by others is a side issue.

Dobbin
So where does the money come from to fund this beloved sport? Remove bookmakers, traders, etc. tomorrow and next month there will be no horse racing!
davetimmins
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Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:22 pm

I think it is the "new" rules that most people find confusing. A little like the offside rule in football, people don't really know where they stand. I agree with JG that if a horse enters the stalls then he should be deemed a runner unless there is a stall malfunction. Handling the stalls, how to exit them quickly and efficiently is all part of the game. If trainers don't pay enough attention to this then it is their horse(and the punters) who suffer.

The same is true for jumps races. When horses are under "starters orders" as it used to be then they were all deemed runners. Now the discretion is with the starter and that opens up a whole range of confusing options.

As with the renumbering of stalls etc. "don't fix it if it ain't broke". Racing is not just for traders, punters, or owners, it's for everybody. Racing For Change are behind most of the recent changes. Their brief is," ... to introduce a greater customer focus into the Sport to make it relevant to the leisure consumer of today ... with nationwide research and consultations across the whole horseracing industry". So are we to believe that these alterations are what the people want?
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Dobbin
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Hi Jg

Racing is on the decline.

It is not worth getting out of bed for some of the prize money available

Dobbin
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JollyGreen
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Dobbin wrote:Hi Jg

Racing is on the decline.

It is not worth getting out of bed for some of the prize money available

Dobbin
Sadly you are correct and I personally believe it because it is run in the main by the few for the few. They are out of touch and fear change, which I know is a natural human response.

I love horse racing and always have done. If there is sport on TV then 99% of the time I will watch the racing. If I can go to the course then I will and as I live in Cheltenham I am fortunate!

There are so many stupid things that are wrong but when people raise their voices some tweed clad double barrelled named person appears on TV and says "we do understand and we'll try not to let it happen again". Sadly he then disappears and guess what, it happens again.

It's time for change but it will be a long and painful process....if it happens at all!
andyfuller
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Will comment a bit more later when I have time but I think Scott Ferguson sums up the current state of play quite well with this:

http://www.sportismadeforbetting.com/20 ... itled.html
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JollyGreen
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Scott and I share a lot of banter, he is a smart and witty guy. I think that article sums it up. These people are not answerable to anyone and it is a long line of cock ups! I started another reply mentioning the old school tie club but thought perhaps I was straying from the path - obviously not!

Okay so the ones listed by Scott are major but there are hundreds that occur throughout a racing year and nothing ever changes.
Photon
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I think that the British horse racing authority need to pop down to Australia and see how, despite different states having different regulation, appear to be far more affective. Australian meetings tend to go amazingly on time and far fewer non-runners (non-existence even compared to UK). I follow Sky Sports radio coverage of the races rather than TV and if there's any problem in loading horses (which rarely happens), apparently the radio station gets a call from somebody to update exactly what's happening and why.

I think its pity that despite the UK industry having a head start they still operate under ancient rules and conventions. And having irregular starts and last minute non-runners are not only annoying to traders but most people concerned. Even regular punter wouldn't like to spend their time studying forms, reading latest news etc. only to find that the horse they reckon to be dead cert is not running after all. Most sports manage to operate effectively so why not UK horse racing.

Horses are not human but they are very co-operative lot and little bit of training and care and adequate procedures could solve a lot of problems that exist. I quite agree with Jollygreen about having the onus of stall ready horses being on the trainers and the need to have structure so that everyone knows what's expected of them.
andyfuller
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With only 2 meetings today bit of time to debate this a bit more. So,
JollyGreen wrote: On the flat, if a horse enters the stalls, the gate closes behind him and the main handler raises his arm to say ready (Edit: Assistant Starter does this, the stalls handlers only indicate that all of their team is clear of the stalls but doesn't indicate the field is ready), any horse that does not start should be declared a runner. The only exception should be a horse(s) playing up resulting in the jockey not being mounted or in the "ready" position. For example if a horse is rearing badly the call for a start should not be made. If un-readiness ( is that a word :D ) occurs prior to the "ready" shout then the horse should either be removed from the stalls or the jockey remounted to allow the "ready" call.
What you describe is what is supposed to happen now under the new rule. There is unsurprisingly being a bit of an ironing out the issues period where some stewards are not fully understanding the rule but we have been assured this is being worked on. Leicester the other week being a case in point where they held their hands up and admitted they got it wrong and would learn from it.

However, some times a horse will rear up just as the starter lets them go. We now basically have the same rule as in America.

JollyGreen wrote:As for loading a horse, there should be 3 attempts allowed to load. After attempt 2 if the horse looks recalcitrant the starter or his assistant should issue a warning that last chance is imminent. An orange indicator could be attached to the runner. If the horse fails to load on the 3rd attempt a red blanket/cover/ribbon should be attached to the horse to indicate he is now a non runner.
I agree about the 3 strikes and you are out idea but don't really agree with your idea about the blanket/cover/ribbon as that is very impractical. I feel a simple solution would be as is done in Dubai and something similar is done in Oz where the start/assistant have a walkie talkie (they already do I believe) but also the commentator has one (they don't seem to at present).

They could then let them know that the horse is on its final chance who can then relay it to the public. Not sure I really see a need to be told a horse is on its last chance though tbh.

If a horse does not load though they could then let the commentator know as is done in Ireland I think so they are then certain which horses have not loaded rather than trying to figure it out themselves.
JollyGreen wrote:This may seem harsh but really it is quite simple. The trainer should be made to perform stalls testing more often to the point where the horse is used to the stalls and not overly upset by them. I appreciate the full stress cannot be created in tests and practice but it is clear that this is not being done by trainers. Some argue that they need to get the horses fit and fast but what is the point of that if the horse then plays up, won't load and then ends up as a non-runner.
My experience of working in yards and knowing others who do would indicate a very different line of thought to yours.

What you write sounds like you are saying trainers don't want to practice the stalls as it will slow the horses down or interferer with their normal training. It obviously in the trainers interest that a horse is experienced in the stalls and all trainers I know practice the stalls regularly and many make the horses walk through them each morning on the way to the gallops and when they come back. Yes there will be some trainers who don't practice much but the majority do imo. I don't think we have that many play up in the stalls tbh when you consider the total number of runners we have but I don't have figures to back this up.

Australia is a very different kettle of fish as they have Trial races which I don't think we need here.

I agree with your idea on the jumps and something like that would be good but again I think the Irish have it much better than us in that the commentator usually says before or very shortly into the race that such and such was WD, in the UK we don't know until about 5 mins after the race for sure.
andyfuller
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 12:23 pm

I agree with Photon that we could learn a lot from how things are run in Australia. As he says they are nearly always off on time, in the UK we only amble down to the start most of the time at the off time. But if they need to make up time they always do, which shows it can be done in the allotted time.

We should be benchmarking on all countries around the world and taking the best from each country.
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