Hi Guys.
I'm angry with myself because I have a weakness and little self discipline.
For the last few months I have been pre race scalping. And doing pretty well, for once. (With the help of Peter's excellent videos, which I wish I had taken the trouble to watch a long time ago). I show a profit ofon most of my trades. And I don't have any trouble in hedging for a small loss.
However. The problem starts when I have a red of about 10% or more. A little voice in my head says "go on, go inplay. You'll get matched on both sides because the odds are volatile. It's only a few ticks!" Well I've been caught too many times now.
I know I could take SP on all before off time. But somehow the optimist and idiot in me, gets the upper hand.
How did other people cure themselves of this? Is there something they say to themselves that works. I know there is no magic solution, but if anybody has overcome this, how did you do it?
Thanks for reading.
My weakness is going inplay.
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Dublin_Flyer
- Posts: 872
- Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:39 am
Easiest solution is have an automation running in Guardian that will green/red your position just before or around off-time.
It's not ideal by any means with some races going off late, but if you're letting hope/emotion get the better of you, then you need something to force you out of your position and just call it on that market, because you won't call it.
Less easier solution is your mindset; Are you in the green way pre-off and not getting out? Are you getting into the market at the right time or the wrong time and hoping it'll swing your way? All those type of questions.
If you genuinely have a knack or edge in scalping, then you'll be out of the market before your automation Green/Red kicks in, so the automation won't be noticed.
It's not ideal by any means with some races going off late, but if you're letting hope/emotion get the better of you, then you need something to force you out of your position and just call it on that market, because you won't call it.
Less easier solution is your mindset; Are you in the green way pre-off and not getting out? Are you getting into the market at the right time or the wrong time and hoping it'll swing your way? All those type of questions.
If you genuinely have a knack or edge in scalping, then you'll be out of the market before your automation Green/Red kicks in, so the automation won't be noticed.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10631
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
That's mostly down to lack of confidence, once you 100% know you'd get that money back at some point then you won't be tempted to do those "lets make that loss go away" moments. People claim to change their mindset and many books get sold on that premise but what happens is that winning gets easier so the internal pressure to make losses signifcant declines naturally.
But for now, if you're familiar with Excel then list all of your results in a column, highlight them and insert a "histogram" style chart. The one that shows how often you have results in certain price bands. What you'll see is that with enough results that chart will start to form a shape called a 'normalised distribution'. It should help you realise that although most of the time you win or lose say 50p there are less frequent wins or losses of a lot more. They happen, you can't avoid them it's just the maths. So when you get a bigger loss and you fill a gap down at the bigger loss end of the chart then accept it as just one that was always going to happen, and with time there'll be another one where you win a matching +ve and the other end of the chart gets filled.
Here's an example from random data showing how results don't just sit at the middle there's always some at either end.
But for now, if you're familiar with Excel then list all of your results in a column, highlight them and insert a "histogram" style chart. The one that shows how often you have results in certain price bands. What you'll see is that with enough results that chart will start to form a shape called a 'normalised distribution'. It should help you realise that although most of the time you win or lose say 50p there are less frequent wins or losses of a lot more. They happen, you can't avoid them it's just the maths. So when you get a bigger loss and you fill a gap down at the bigger loss end of the chart then accept it as just one that was always going to happen, and with time there'll be another one where you win a matching +ve and the other end of the chart gets filled.
Here's an example from random data showing how results don't just sit at the middle there's always some at either end.
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Thanks for the replies fellas.
I'm afraid Excel is way beyond me Shaun. Sending a screen shot is just about within my grasp. You are probably right about the confidence issue. I know from past experience, if I can resist inplay than the money always comes back in a few races. But when you see your profits take a nosedive because the price has shot against you, it's tempting to try and take an easy way (!) out. I try and avoid the last five minutes before race time because that seems the most dangerous.
Thanks as well DF. I'm not greedy I get out at about three ticks profit.So the chances are I've just been matched the second or third time. I normally get involved between 15 and 5 minutes before the off. I'm not a fan of automation but it would certainly take the emotion out of the problem. Is there a simple green up rule I could put in Guardian, so I can trade manually and it will green up at say a 15% loss.
(Hello Dallas) lol lOnce again thanks for your input and time.
I'm afraid Excel is way beyond me Shaun. Sending a screen shot is just about within my grasp. You are probably right about the confidence issue. I know from past experience, if I can resist inplay than the money always comes back in a few races. But when you see your profits take a nosedive because the price has shot against you, it's tempting to try and take an easy way (!) out. I try and avoid the last five minutes before race time because that seems the most dangerous.
Thanks as well DF. I'm not greedy I get out at about three ticks profit.So the chances are I've just been matched the second or third time. I normally get involved between 15 and 5 minutes before the off. I'm not a fan of automation but it would certainly take the emotion out of the problem. Is there a simple green up rule I could put in Guardian, so I can trade manually and it will green up at say a 15% loss.
(Hello Dallas) lol lOnce again thanks for your input and time.
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ShaunWhite
- Posts: 10631
- Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:42 am
Been there greety. The problem with that one is that when you have a position open you should make the judgement to stay in or close second by second rather than just being £x down. Those safety bots have a nasty habit of kicking in just as you anticipate a turnaround or they often get hit by a mini-spike. I'm not sure there's an easy answer, I was a sod for trying to make losses go away. I even setup up a safety-bot laptop in another room and I'd still sprint over to it and make a 'better decision' 2 or 3 times a day! It's harsh but I think the only way is to just to put your big boy pants on and get a grip, you don't find a brain surgeon getting all slash-happy with the scapel when things look bad, so when trading can pay the same wages you have to accept the same level of control and responsibility.
...actually one thing that helped me was that I wanted this sooo bad but had so little discipline that I made myself show the missus my bet history at the end of the day.
The fear of showing her much of a dick I'd been, again!, soon got bigger than the desire to do anything rash. -£20 feels like a win compared to -£200 believe me.Haha, nice one Shaun.
Actually that idea about showing the wife is'nt such a daft idea. She already knows about my problem. If I can just persuade her to put the rolling pin down...
The real truth is like you said, grow a pair and learn to either cut your loss or hit the take SP buttonjust before the off.
Thanks for the advice
ATB
Actually that idea about showing the wife is'nt such a daft idea. She already knows about my problem. If I can just persuade her to put the rolling pin down...
The real truth is like you said, grow a pair and learn to either cut your loss or hit the take SP buttonjust before the off.
Thanks for the advice
ATB
Been there, done that
One word of support.....many of us have been there, even those who went on to become successful traders
A correction is needed on the title of your thread though!
Your weakness isn't going In Play, your weakness is having an aversion to losses
That's what drives you going In Play
Aversion to losses is a killer, that's why we keep seeing threads about Martingale, or other strategies that recoups losses
You simply have to understand that you will get markets you lose on, you will get red screens. Even Peter Webb occasionally gets red screens!!
Tell yourself "I am a trader, not a gambler. This is my business"
All businesses lose money on some products or services, so don't let them bother you
You just have to find a way of detaching yourself from those highs and lows, because those adrenaline rushes can be fatal when you're on the wrong side of the book
If you successfully start redding the losses, but are not making money, then your trading skills need improving, but at least you're not bankrupting yourself
Good luck
One word of support.....many of us have been there, even those who went on to become successful traders
A correction is needed on the title of your thread though!
Your weakness isn't going In Play, your weakness is having an aversion to losses
That's what drives you going In Play
Aversion to losses is a killer, that's why we keep seeing threads about Martingale, or other strategies that recoups losses
You simply have to understand that you will get markets you lose on, you will get red screens. Even Peter Webb occasionally gets red screens!!
Tell yourself "I am a trader, not a gambler. This is my business"
All businesses lose money on some products or services, so don't let them bother you
You just have to find a way of detaching yourself from those highs and lows, because those adrenaline rushes can be fatal when you're on the wrong side of the book
If you successfully start redding the losses, but are not making money, then your trading skills need improving, but at least you're not bankrupting yourself
Good luck
Hi - I have been in this position until quite recently. I started learning to trade nearly 3 years ago and have only just got to the point where I'm starting to get fairly consistant but only on small stakes and only 30% of horse racing markets, the rest I've no idea so leave them out. I was almost going in play every day but I absolutely hated the emotions involved - anger, despair and feeling absolutely hopefeless when I had a lay bet on a horse at high odds only to see it romp home and blow my bankroll! One day I just decided it was pointless doing that as I was letting myself down so made a consicous decision to no longer do it. What I then noticed is that after around a month of not going IP I started to feel so much more comfortable and in control and proud that I'd changed my mentality and no longer felt bothered by losses - this has spurred me on to keep aiming to improve and learn all the caveats of the markets. I keep a P/L record which I find helpful. You could try recording your screen activity and watching it back afterwards, I've not done that but noticed lots of folk recommend it.
I will say though that the almost 3 years of practicing has been massively beneficial and not something I could have shortcut.
I will say though that the almost 3 years of practicing has been massively beneficial and not something I could have shortcut.
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Trader Pat
- Posts: 4327
- Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm
This is a very good point. I went through a very similar experience of going in play and blowing banks almost on a weekly basis.
When you're wired like we are accepting a loss is very very difficult. So many times I would trade 11-12 races in a row for a decent profit and then go in play chasing pennies.
What MLW says here though is spot on. When you feel like hitting the in play button if you can make the conscious effort to sit on your hands you actually do feel proud that you were able to let it go and accept the loss and the more you do it the better you feel. I can remember one day where I didn't make a penny but didn't go in play once and felt great! That was a really turning point for me.
It's not easy to do because you have to overcome the urge to chase so you have to be mindful of exactly what you're doing every second you're in the market. Asking yourself 'what am I going to do if this starts to move against me?' to try and prepare yourself in advance. That's why its so important to try and have your exit already in mind before you enter the market. If you can get into that habit then it helps take the emotion out of your decision making. It is possible it just takes time.
Good luck
Thanks for the positive words Pat. My next problematic mindset though is cockyness, thinking that now I've reached a fairly good standard it's easy to start over trading. As the journey progresses, newer problems with mentality will present themselves. Trading reminds me of learning a musical instrument - hard to master and easy to fall into bad habits
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bennyboy351
- Posts: 332
- Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:01 pm
Hi there!greety wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 4:59 pmHi Guys.
I'm angry with myself because I have a weakness and little self discipline.
For the last few months I have been pre race scalping. And doing pretty well, for once. (With the help of Peter's excellent videos, which I wish I had taken the trouble to watch a long time ago). I show a profit ofon most of my trades. And I don't have any trouble in hedging for a small loss.
However. The problem starts when I have a red of about 10% or more. A little voice in my head says "go on, go inplay. You'll get matched on both sides because the odds are volatile. It's only a few ticks!" Well I've been caught too many times now.
I know I could take SP on all before off time. But somehow the optimist and idiot in me, gets the upper hand.
How did other people cure themselves of this? Is there something they say to themselves that works. I know there is no magic solution, but if anybody has overcome this, how did you do it?
Thanks for reading.
As someone who has - over the past few years - "invested" a five figure sum (which shouldn't have happened - but no use crying over spilled milk!) in the trading markets, may I just say this:
I too have spent far too much time (and money) trying to run before I've learned to walk and trying to recoup my losses when that running has caused me to fall flat on my face!
Having taken a 12 month 'break' on Betfair, I now have a maximum monthly deposit limit imposed on me! Its great in one way, because I can't sell the missus into slavery to support my 'habit' (doh!) but on the flipside, it greatly restricts my ability to trade with a 'decent' bank.
The above said, as I've lost a couple of banks even following this deposit restriction, I feel that I'm still not ready to be let loose with limitless (Oh how I wish! LOL) funds. BUT I'm 'getting there!'
Long story short?: Do as I now do. Make a note of your opening bank and your closing bank per day/week/month. Record EVERY Trade's profit/loss details. REALISE that you MUST learn to 'toddle' - let alone walk - before you can run! Accept that trading IS a long-term option for making money (as I have) and that you will NOT make a fortune in a few days/weeks/months!
Accept that you WILL have losses and take them on the chin. Keep calm and don't feel that you have to trade every market, every day! And finally, try to ENJOY your trading! Make trading a relaxing 'hobby' if you like - you can build a living from it later (as I intend to!).
I hope that this helps?
Best wishes
George.
The one thing I learned by the way.....is one of the reasons why people try to recoup losses is because they are staking too heavily, which invariably results from poor money management
I used to be blinded by money, because after all, that's why I was here......to make money!
However, it was effecting my trading performance because I wasn't concentrating enough on the markets
My advice to any newbies struggling is to set your 'Staking Method' to Tick Size
This keeps your money management under control, especially losses
It means you are forgetting about money for a second, you're just concentrating on your performance and looking for more winning ticks than losing ones
When you start making a surplus of ticks throughout the day, you'll be making a profit
I used to be blinded by money, because after all, that's why I was here......to make money!
However, it was effecting my trading performance because I wasn't concentrating enough on the markets
My advice to any newbies struggling is to set your 'Staking Method' to Tick Size
This keeps your money management under control, especially losses
It means you are forgetting about money for a second, you're just concentrating on your performance and looking for more winning ticks than losing ones
When you start making a surplus of ticks throughout the day, you'll be making a profit
Thank you to everybody who has contributed.
Le Tiss. You were spot on about the title. The nail has been hit on the head.
To the most recent posts. Thank you. Luckily, I'm only using ten pound stakes so things are'nt desperate. Walk before you can run. Once again spot on.
And I do make daily notes of my bank, Generally about 30% profit per day, unless of course IP rears it's ugly head.
And yes, you do feel good when you've been clean for a few days but boy, do you feel dirty after a big loss lol!
ATB
Dave
Le Tiss. You were spot on about the title. The nail has been hit on the head.
To the most recent posts. Thank you. Luckily, I'm only using ten pound stakes so things are'nt desperate. Walk before you can run. Once again spot on.
And I do make daily notes of my bank, Generally about 30% profit per day, unless of course IP rears it's ugly head.
And yes, you do feel good when you've been clean for a few days but boy, do you feel dirty after a big loss lol!
ATB
Dave
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Trader Pat
- Posts: 4327
- Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:50 pm
Sounds about rightMLW wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:40 pmThanks for the positive words Pat. My next problematic mindset though is cockyness, thinking that now I've reached a fairly good standard it's easy to start over trading. As the journey progresses, newer problems with mentality will present themselves. Trading reminds me of learning a musical instrument - hard to master and easy to fall into bad habits
I went through lots of different phases. Went from chasing losses to overconfidence, then when I finally got a handle on all the negative stuff I started having problems with boredom.
You're constantly trying to stay one step ahead of yourself as well the market