Ukraine Crisis

[Derek27]

I thought one of the conditions for joining NATO is not being at war?

[Derek27]

No idea but appears Russians have been using them, hopefully get a taste of their own medicine. Wonder if we have any in stock get them over there as well if we have.

The 2008 Convention banning Cluster Munitions was signed by 111 countries. The UK signed. China, Russia, Israel, Ukraine and the USA did not sign.

So, the USA is free to produce, transport and handover to Ukraine as it pleases.

Shouldn't the question be "did Ukraine sign?" ... surely it's the end user that is significant, not the manufacturer.

I can't imagine an agreement that says you're not allowed to use cluster bombs but you can manufacture and flog them to any nation that's not a signatory.

[Archery1969]

I thought one of the conditions for joining NATO is not being at war?

That's the sticking point to be discussed at the pending NATO summit.

I am not saying they will but if they agree to change or bend that rule/condition then NATO could suddenly find itself at War with Putin the moment its ratified/signed.

[firlandsfarm]

I thought one of the conditions for joining NATO is not being at war?

They are not at war, they are taking part in a ‘Special Military Operation’ and can call upon Mr Putin to provide the evidence to support that!

[firlandsfarm]

I can't imagine an agreement that says you're not allowed to use cluster bombs but you can manufacture and flog them to any nation that's not a signatory.

Derek, don't be so naïve! Of course they can have an agreement that says anything if they all agree to it!

[Derek27]

I thought one of the conditions for joining NATO is not being at war?

They are not at war, they are taking part in a ‘Special Military Operation’ and can call upon Mr Putin to provide the evidence to support that!

If they're not at war then they can't trigger article 5.

[Archery1969]

According to the wording of Article 5, it also provides the ability to act if a NATO ally is attacked and not just a NATO member:

"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."


So, at the pending NATO summit, they could agree that Ukraine is a NATO ally and act accordingly.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topi ... 20attacked.

Will they, not sure but the wording seems to suggest they can if they ALL agree and like I said previously, Turkey now seems not to care if they piss Putin off, given what happened over the weekend etc.

[napshnap]

According to the wording of Article 5, it also provides the ability to act if a NATO ally is attacked and not just a NATO member:

"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."


So, at the pending NATO summit, they could agree that Ukraine is a NATO ally and act accordingly.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topi ... 20attacked.

Will they, not sure but the wording seems to suggest they can if they ALL agree and like I said previously, Turkey now seems not to care if they piss Putin off, given what happened over the weekend etc.

Or or they can agree that it is 99.9999% ally and nato still cant take an action directly and openly. And that will be enough for dumdums that will be running circles screaming: "Ring ding ding ding! Only 0.0001% to go, pals!!"

[Archery1969]

According to the wording of Article 5, it also provides the ability to act if a NATO ally is attacked and not just a NATO member:

"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."


So, at the pending NATO summit, they could agree that Ukraine is a NATO ally and act accordingly.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topi ... 20attacked.

Will they, not sure but the wording seems to suggest they can if they ALL agree and like I said previously, Turkey now seems not to care if they piss Putin off, given what happened over the weekend etc.

Or or they can agree that it is 99.9999% ally and nato still cant take an action directly and openly. And that will be enough for dumdums that will be running circles screaming: "Ring ding ding ding! Only 0.0001% to go, pals!!"

It must be a language barrier but I have no clue what you talking about.

[Derek27]

According to the wording of Article 5, it also provides the ability to act if a NATO ally is attacked and not just a NATO member:

"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."


So, at the pending NATO summit, they could agree that Ukraine is a NATO ally and act accordingly.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topi ... 20attacked.

Will they, not sure but the wording seems to suggest they can if they ALL agree and like I said previously, Turkey now seems not to care if they piss Putin off, given what happened over the weekend etc.

Before the war, I mean special operation, that would have been unthinkable. Biden immediately pulled out US troops from Ukraine for fear of US and Russian soldiers shooting at each other and triggering a world war, as he put it.

Things look very different now with so much of Putin's hardware destroyed, his army exhausted and exposed as ineffective, his so-called unstoppable missiles getting shot down reducing his nuclear deterrent, even he probably realises how weak he is.

[napshnap]

According to the wording of Article 5, it also provides the ability to act if a NATO ally is attacked and not just a NATO member:

"Article 5 provides that if a NATO Ally is the victim of an armed attack, each and every other member of the Alliance will consider this act of violence as an armed attack against all members and will take the actions it deems necessary to assist the Ally attacked."


So, at the pending NATO summit, they could agree that Ukraine is a NATO ally and act accordingly.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topi ... 20attacked.

Will they, not sure but the wording seems to suggest they can if they ALL agree and like I said previously, Turkey now seems not to care if they piss Putin off, given what happened over the weekend etc.

Or or they can agree that it is 99.9999% ally and nato still cant take an action directly and openly. And that will be enough for dumdums that will be running circles screaming: "Ring ding ding ding! Only 0.0001% to go, pals!!"

It must be a language barrier but I have no clue what you talking about.

Nato leaders give them promises while they're dying. Nothing will change with forthcoming meeting.

[Archery1969]

The US Defense Department announced an additional security assistance package of up to $800 million aimed at providing key capabilities to support Ukraine's counteroffensive operations and defend against Russia's war of aggression.

- Munitions for U.S.-provided Patriot air defense systems and High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems as Ukraine continues its push to reclaim territory seized by Russian forces.

- Artillery systems and ammunition, including dual-purpose improved conventional munitions, or DPICM, which the Pentagon is providing for the first time to Ukraine after extensive consultation with Congress and U.S. allies. The specific rounds that are being fielded have been assessed to have a dud rate, or rate of unexploded submunitions released from each round, of 2.35%. That contrasts to the cluster munitions employed by Russia throughout Ukraine since the start of the war that have dud rates of up to 40%. The exact number being supplied is not known but thought to be hundreds of thousands from existing US stockpiles.

- Enhanced body armour and helmets.

- Encrypted portable communication and surveillance equipment.

- Three thousand military grade drones.

- Ten thousand small arms and two million rounds of ammunition.

- Six thousand hand held rocket launchers plus ammunition.

[firlandsfarm]

I thought one of the conditions for joining NATO is not being at war?

They are not at war, they are taking part in a ‘Special Military Operation’ and can call upon Mr Putin to provide the evidence to support that!

If they're not at war then they can't trigger article 5.

Well actually yes they can. Article 5 states that an armed attack against one or more of the member states of NATO shall be considered an attack against them all. It (probably intentionally) doesn't mention war because they would then get caught up in what is the legal definition of 'war'! But the artillery fire or dropping bombs is pretty unambiguous.

Going back to my point on agreements ... you can agree anything no matter how nonsensical if you all agree!

[Archery1969]

A detailed plan for defending against a Russian attack will be discussed at a Nato meeting on 11 and 12 July.

It's thought to be the military alliance's most in-depth scheme for countering Russia since the end of the Cold War.

In the meantime I heading back down into my bunker.

[napshnap]

A detailed plan for defending against a Russian attack will be discussed at a Nato meeting on 11 and 12 July.

It's thought to be the military alliance's most in-depth scheme for countering Russia since the end of the Cold War.

In the meantime I heading back down into my bunker.

You should install Fallout 1 and 2 to your PC. Imagine playing it while everything's melting in nuclear fire? Cringiest thing ever!)