Ukraine Crisis

[firlandsfarm]

If any regime can be effective "spokesperson" of will of the people then who needs a democracy?

That's simply not true, "the mob" is a poltical object, a tool.

Maybe I didn't explain it very well napshnap. Sorry.

A leader is appointed through the ballot box, takes the role by force or in the case of a ruling monarchy through birth right. The removal of a democratically elected leader can be by way of the ballot box the next time it is used or in all three cases by force/disobedience. History is full of such events. I cited the 'boat people' as an example of an irresistible force. The authorities in Europe cannot stop them because there are too many. Their will to get to Europe is greater than the European countries ability to repel them. If enough want to come collectively they will come and have come.

The will of the people (the mob) is the most powerful force in a country. A stable leader manages that will and draws a balance between what they want and what 'the mob' wants. If the leader denies 'the mob' too much they will dispose them and there will be nothing the leader can do to prevent them. I don't see 'the mob' in the shape of the 'boat people' as political (other than how some of our politicians have tried to weaponise them). They are nobody's tool.

[firlandsfarm]

If you're talking about a simultaneous street assault on government buildings across Russia that's too big for the government to handle, would you be willing to lead them and be the first executed?

The Chinese rebellions are amongst the bravest and they haven't been able to overthrow their government.

Yes, the citizens opposing the 'official' leader would need leadership to muster their power and no I would not be willing to lead them against Putin but that's not the point. All I'm saying is that if enough people oppose a leader then they can/will overturn them.

Yes the Chinese rebels have been very brave but when they were challenged by Authority they were not strong enough but what if those rebels were 5 million strong?

I can see I have some resistance to this understanding of leadership but it is a commonly held view by those who have studied 'leadership'. It applies everywhere there is a leader. From the family home, the school playground, work environments etc. all the way up to Government. Perhaps the most recent high power example was the Brexit referendum. Our 'leaders' (Cameron and Co.) wanted us to Remain but the majority of 'the mob' (the population) wanted us to Leave and so we left. Cameron and Co. then had to resign their leadership because they could not lead going forward with 'the mob' having said "no, we are not going to do as you say".

[napshnap]

If any regime can be effective "spokesperson" of will of the people then who needs a democracy?

That's simply not true, "the mob" is a poltical object, a tool.

Maybe I didn't explain it very well napshnap. Sorry.

...

If the leader denies 'the mob' too much they will dispose them and there will be nothing the leader can do to prevent them.

Guided by another "leader", another force they will.

I don't see 'the mob' in the shape of the 'boat people' as political (other than how some of our politicians have tried to weaponise them). They are nobody's tool.

They are consequence of a devastation of their homeland. It's not like they randomly decided to runaway. The question is what was the devastation really for?

[firlandsfarm]

They are consequence of a devastation of their homeland. It's not like they randomly decided to runaway. The question is what was the devastation really for?

Yes the cause of their devastation may well be political but that does not make them political. Actually I believe many (the young males with their iPhones fleeing the dangers they have left their families to endure) have "randomly decided to runaway". They never tried before because it was impossible ... you will be returned. But now they see it is possible so now they come. Their target is Europe, Australia or USA of which only Europe is practical so here they come and they are unstoppable because of the sheer numbers.

[Derek27]

Ukrainians reported to be taking Russian soldiers from behind!!

[greenmark]

From what I've been reading Putin has mined an entire swathe of territory. Not so "Superpower" now eh? Mining is a dastardly tactic. It's a brick wall (he hopes), but will take years and many innocent lives to tidy up. Putin is as close to scum as I can imagine. It's not the same as Saddam or Gaddafi, Putin has real power to change the world for good, but he's a megalomaniac so that won't happen.

[Derek27]

What's happened to the no Western weapons fired over the border policy?

Ukraine now openly firing drones over Moscow.

[Archery1969]

What's happened to the no Western weapons fired over the border policy?

Ukraine now openly firing drones over Moscow.

The west said do not use any weapons we give you to attack Russia directly.

There using homemade drones packed with high explosives and ones donated to them from Turkey. A group of people setup a gofundme type page in Turkey and some rich people put $ millions in it. They then used this to buy drones from Turkish manufacturer and got them shipped to Ukraine. These are pretty sophisticated high end military drones. I believe they raised enough money for 1,000 of them so far.

[firlandsfarm]

What's happened to the no Western weapons fired over the border policy?

Ukraine now openly firing drones over Moscow.

It could be a case of which drone from which source exploded where! Ukraine send all their drones at targets in Russia and the Western donated drones stay in Ukraine to defend it.

[Derek27]

What's happened to the no Western weapons fired over the border policy?

Ukraine now openly firing drones over Moscow.

It could be a case of which drone from which source exploded where! Ukraine send all their drones at targets in Russia and the Western donated drones stay in Ukraine to defend it.

So the more missiles we send them to use in Ukraine the more they'll have to fire at Russia.

[Archery1969]

Well, if Russia cant prevent these from hitting Moscow then I dont think we need to worry about Russia nuking anyone.

[napshnap]

Well, if Russia cant prevent these from hitting Moscow then I dont think we need to worry about Russia nuking anyone.

According to russian nuclear doctrine, nuclear weapons will be used if the state is in danger. Ukranian drones attacked (twice!) the building where at least 3 ministries are located. And their talking head said there will be more attacks.
You know... when it is written "do not put your fingers in the socket - it is deadly!", then it is better not to do this, but these are very special people being teased by very special friends.

[Michael5482]

Well, if Russia cant prevent these from hitting Moscow then I dont think we need to worry about Russia nuking anyone.

According to russian nuclear doctrine, nuclear weapons will be used if the state is in danger. Ukranian drones attacked (twice!) the building where at least 3 ministries are located. And their talking head said there will be more attacks.
You know... when it is written "do not put your fingers in the socket - it is deadly!", then it is better not to do this, but these are special people.

You mean Medvedev threating to use nuclear weapons again if the Ukraine counter-offensive drives Russia back and further embarrasses them because some concocted document says they can. If they want the attacks to stop they can remove themselves out the Ukraine.

Russia are 500+ days into a war they can't and won't win so all they have is nuclear threats. Only danger the Russian state is in is it becoming a bigger laughing stock than it already is, Putin is weak and a failure. He has achieved strengthening NATO so he deserves credit for that.

[Archery1969]

Well, if Russia cant prevent these from hitting Moscow then I dont think we need to worry about Russia nuking anyone.

According to russian nuclear doctrine, nuclear weapons will be used if the state is in danger. Ukranian drones attacked (twice!) the building where at least 3 ministries are located. And their talking head said there will be more attacks.
You know... when it is written "do not put your fingers in the socket - it is deadly!", then it is better not to do this, but these are very special people being teased by very special friends.

There is already a plan in place if/when Putin nukes Ukraine. Obviously I have no idea what the details would be but i think it would be along the lines of:

1. Counter nuke Russian Air, Land, Sea bases in Russia and overseas.
2. Nuke locations of tracked submarines. They dont need to be accurate just generally last known location.
3. Knockout communication and ground tracking satellites.
4. Destroy naval ships out of port.
5. Destory fixed Russian ICBM sites.
6. Destroy last known locations of mobile ICBM's.
7. Destroy Oil, Gas, Electricity infrastructure.
8. Nuke Putin's last known location if inside Russia or outside if not a friendly country.

Obviously all the above would have to be timed correctly to happen within minutes of each other to cause maximum destruction and panic among the Russian military. It would be difficult but not impossible. NATO / The West / USA does have the firepower though, its just a matter of organisation and timings.

In some mad idea, the USA may want Putin to do something terrible so they can react with massive force. Why ?, because it would help send a clear message to China over Taiwan, i.e. Dont even go there or else.

Well, the above is what I would do. But don't forget what happened to Japan, the USA decided to kill a few hundred thousand to end a war and stop further killing.

Biden may be old but he not stupid, his advisors will tell him what to do if Putin does nuke Ukraine. I imagine the plans, including the above were drawn up a long time ago.

[napshnap]

Well, if Russia cant prevent these from hitting Moscow then I dont think we need to worry about Russia nuking anyone.

According to russian nuclear doctrine, nuclear weapons will be used if the state is in danger. Ukranian drones attacked (twice!) the building where at least 3 ministries are located. And their talking head said there will be more attacks.
You know... when it is written "do not put your fingers in the socket - it is deadly!", then it is better not to do this, but these are special people.

...

You mean Medvedev...

Nope, not this loud guy.

because some concocted document says they can

Shouldn't this "concocted document" at least be taken as a warning? When you drive your car you look at road signts, right?

Only danger the Russian state is in is it becoming a bigger laughing stock than it already is

Get off your high horse, and imagine for a sec that it's not a funny ruritania's ministries being attacked but yours.