Israel/Palestine conflict

[Crazyskier]

Agreed but Israel is about to do the same. There are babies in intensive care who can’t be moved. If Israel destroys the hospital they will lose all legitimate credibility in the Arab world and the saga will continue.

Two wrongs and all that stuff don’t elevate one side or the other to be any higher than one or the other.

Archery you are badly mistaken in my view. There is no reasonable comparison between Israel's perfectly legal and reasonable retaliation, (using War Rules as per the Geneva Convention) to free the hundreds of Israeli hostages, as opposed to the appalling beheading of babies and rape of Mothers over the dead bodies of their children that Hamas did last week!

Of course, any non-terrorist casualties on any side are always regrettable, but given that Hamas are deliberately using Palestinians as human shields, and the fact that Israel has given well over 24 hours written notice with leaflets and letter warning of the action BEFORE it happens, bearing in mind that their hostages are still being tortured and killed by the hour - what else can Israel do?

There is a gulf of difference between the two parties and their behaviour, and this muddying of the waters is what gives credence to Hamas and ISIS! Please don't do that. It's very unhelpful.

CS

No reasonable comparison ?

Nobody, whatever the circumstances has the right to kill children/babies.

Nobody is condoning the slaughter of innocents. I'm merely highlighting the atrocities committed by Hamas last week, and incidental casualties of War that are sadly inevitable in any war, including WW1 and WW2. There really is a huge difference and I believe we should be mindful of the distinction between them, and not suggest that they are somehow comparable or parallel as many anti-Semites on the streets today seem to be doing.

CS

[greenmark]

Archery you are badly mistaken in my view. There is no reasonable comparison between Israel's perfectly legal and reasonable retaliation, (using War Rules as per the Geneva Convention) to free the hundreds of Israeli hostages, as opposed to the appalling beheading of babies and rape of Mothers over the dead bodies of their children that Hamas did last week!

Of course, any non-terrorist casualties on any side are always regrettable, but given that Hamas are deliberately using Palestinians as human shields, and the fact that Israel has given well over 24 hours written notice with leaflets and letter warning of the action BEFORE it happens, bearing in mind that their hostages are still being tortured and killed by the hour - what else can Israel do?

There is a gulf of difference between the two parties and their behaviour, and this muddying of the waters is what gives credence to Hamas and ISIS! Please don't do that. It's very unhelpful.

CS

No reasonable comparison ?

Nobody, whatever the circumstances has the right to kill children/babies.

Nobody is condoning the slaughter of innocents. I'm merely highlighting the atrocities committed by Hamas last week, and incidental casualties of War that are sadly inevitable in any war, including WW1 and WW2. There really is a huge difference and I believe we should be mindful of the distinction between them, and not suggest that they are somehow comparable or parallel as many anti-Semites on the streets today seem to be doing.

CS

antisemitic is quite bizarre in itself. Semite (by my feeble understanding) is based on a shared lingustic mode. Jews, Arabs and people from wider north africa. Sure they don't speak the same language, but do have the same linguistic roots.
But I don't understand how "antisemitic" has become attached to Jews. Arabs (mostly Muslim) also speak a semitic language. So are Arabs insulted by every antisemitic remark made against Jews?

[Archery1969]

So, a bus leaving the north, as told to do so by Israel is blown up killing women and children.

I condem Israel for doing so.

They are now on a slippery slop.

[Derek27]

The Western allies destroyed civilian bridges in Bagdad, which had civilian casualties. When they received intelligence of Saddam eating in a restaurant, they bombed the restaurant (shortly after he left) killing about 20 civilians. The Israelis aren't doing anything we don't do, it's just that Gaza is a small area and civilian casualties are unavoidable.

In WWII, the US had little regard for the rules of war in the Pacific after seeing how ruthless the Japanese were and we responded to Hitler's bombing of British towns by dropping white phosphorus bombs on their cities. It was controversial even then, but unfortunately, when thousands of your own civilians are massacred in cold blood the rules of war go out the window.

You could find yourself in a position where your only options are to surrender to a ruthless invader or use ruthless and illegal tactics yourself.

I understand what you are saying Derek but all these wrongs and more do not make a single right.

I'm not saying it's right to break the rules of war because your enemy is doing so. I'm just saying it's understandable when people are pushed to it in extreme circumstances. Soldiers involved in intense fighting for months might struggle to take an enemy combatant prisoner instead of executing him. When babies are being burnt alive and children raped, commanders will be willing to sacrifice the enemy's civilians if it means preventing such attacks again. And of course, the two fission bombs dropped in Japan. Don't know if war crimes were defined at that time, but just think how many lives would have been lost on both sides if the US had to launch a mainland attack.

Makes a change to exchange posts without insulting each other.

[Michael5482]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

[Derek27]

A security advisor has said that Israel failed to stop last week's attacks!!

How much do they pay that guy??

[Crazyskier]

So, a bus leaving the north, as told to do so by Israel is blown up killing women and children.

I condemn Israel for doing so.

They are now on a slippery slop.

And if true, your condemnation is of course justified, Archery.

Though I believe that such an event wouldn't ever be intentional policy by Israel, despite the provocation by Hamas.

Perhaps a rogue agent, blinded by his own grief has gone against the direction of his / her superiors? The Israelis have taken comprehensive measures to warn and give notice to evacuate Gaza South, precisely to avoid civilian casualties. They are abundantly aware of the eyes of the world watching how they retaliate against Hamas / ISIS and retrieve their dead / rescue their hostages.

CS

[Crazyskier]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Wow - narrow minded much? Perhaps you should have a look at the actual teachings of Christ, before you conflate Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faiths. There are only one set of war-mongers and jihadists from ALL of the Abrahamic faiths and we all know who they are!

CS

[Derek27]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Wow - narrow minded much? Perhaps you should have a look at the actual teachings of Christ, before you conflate Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faiths. There are only one set of war-mongers and jihadists from ALL of the Abrahamic faiths and we all know who they are!

CS

We're back to the teachings of Christ, are we?

Wasn't it the pope of the time that called for one or more of the crusades/holy wars? How many did that kill?

If religion didn't exist, nobody would care or fight over the holy land.

[Michael5482]

All this bloodshed going on for 1000+ years in the name of religion which they then use as some sort of excuse to butcher and murder people for a piece of land because of religious nonsense.

People can argue until there blue in the face about rights and wrongs, who did what and the other side retaliated that they did this but ultimately religion is the root cause of all this along with being the root cause in many other conflicts (not all). Without religion the world would be much better place.

In the main religion causes nothing but division, death, misery and destruction.

Wow - narrow minded much? Perhaps you should have a look at the actual teachings of Christ, before you conflate Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim faiths. There are only one set of war-mongers and jihadists from ALL of the Abrahamic faiths and we all know who they are!

CS

I'd rather look at a Monday afternoon Class 6 bumper at Towcester than anything religious, had enough religious drivel forced on me when I was at school.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

[napshnap]

From this point of view religion is a tool.
Monkeys that at ANY cost want to sit on branches above you and eat bananas that tastier than yours is the PROBLEM.

[Archery1969]

Basically, this sums it up for me….

"If Israel are not able to find Hamas, they must not bomb the civilians and the infrastructure.

"We are not animals, we are not in a zoo, we are human beings."

[Derek27]

Basically, this sums it up for me….

"If Israel are not able to find Hamas, they must not bomb the civilians and the infrastructure.

"We are not animals, we are not in a zoo, we are human beings."

Israeli special forces are already in Gaza gathering intelligence. They know where the tunnels are. They're likely to be dropping bunker busters. I hope for the Palestinians sake that they're able to leave the area.

[greenmark]

From this point of view religion is a tool.
Monkeys that at ANY cost want to sit on branches above you and eat bananas that tastier than yours is the PROBLEM.

I agree with you 100%. Those monkeys include Putin and his friends. Saddam, Gaddifi etc. But I suspect you may include some western leaders and I don't. I think Trump want's to be in that league, all his MAGA is a veneer for his egotistical desire to rule the world. I don't put any western democratic leader in the same category as any of that bunch of reprobates.

[firlandsfarm]

I've been reading about the history of Israel. Fuck me it's complicated!

I also got Bethlehem and Jerusalem confused. Different words but I've never seen them in the same sentence/map and thought of it as the same place.

Yes, it is complicated with a deep history. As for Bethlehem and Jerusalem ... Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and Bethlehem is famous for something else!

(Sorry guys, lots of comments follow, lots has been said since last here! )