20.50 PARX(US) 80% overound

[pedrobob]

Anybody see this or bet on it?
I thought it was christmas - lumped on my whole bank for massive green.
A couple of runners were taken out and went from massive green to my account balance going to minus what it was.
I've lost everything and now owe betfair what I originally had in my account
What the hell has happened??

[lilgreenback]

I'm sorry to hear about the loss, I have heard about something similar before where certain conditions meant that withdrawn runners or participants suddenly cause a massive loss. I have just looked for the article but can't find it someone will post up how this occurs and why. Could it have been that trackside in the States that the racing bods suspected that there were going to be late withdrawals hence the 80%. Were you watching live or listening to an audio feed of what was happening? Hope you can recover it quick an get back on feet.

[pedrobob]

It wasnt on live video and just opened the market by mistake.
I knew it was too good to be true.
Just did a little dutch to test the water. Everything greened up and balance stayed the same so I followed it up with a load more dutchs!
I couldnt have been the only one one as the money matched was flying up and the overound soon went over 100.
I couldnt believe it when it went to a huge red and my account was minus what it was.
The green up figure was even bigger than it was but couldnt do anything about it as i needed thousands for it to work, my account was now in minus and no way had time and not enough money to top up account to save myself.
I know i've lost my money but there is no way im paying them what im in minus, do you know what the situation is regarding minus accounts?
Cheers

[andyfuller]

Next time you make a deposit they will take what you owe. If you don't deposit enough to cover the loss you will remain with a negative balance until such time you deposit enough to cover your losses.

If it looks too good to be true it usually is. Unfortunately for you the non runners that were probably known already just hadn't been taken out of the market when you opened it. Case of buyer beware I am afraid.

Google for a similar thing on money saving expert website. People that time thought they were buying money on a next goal scorer market if I remember correctly.

[Iron]

If Betfair screwed up, I don't see why Pedrobob should lose money.

If I were him, I'd fight it.

Jeff

[LeTiss]

Sorry to hear that, that really hurts

Andy's right though, first goalscorer markets can easily catch people out. There's always a massive green book waiting to be layed, but that doesn't tell the full story, as many of those players will end up non-runners

[CaerMyrddin]

.

[Iron]

I never really understood the maths of why this loss happens?

Let's say I dutch a field where there have been non-runners that haven't been removed by Betfair:

Surely Betfair will either:

A. Cancel all my bets on the race

B. Cancel my bets on the non-runners, not deducting a Rule 4 from my winnings (but treating the layers as if they had done so, ie Betfair makes up the shortfall as they screwed up).

C. Cancel my bets on the non-runners, applying a Rule 4 to the rest of the field.

Option A is clearly didn't happen, as Pedrobob wouldn't owe money if it had.

Option B is the fair, honorable option, but there's not a snowflake in hell's chance of it happening!

So I'm guessing Betfair went for Option C, and the Rule 4 deductions mean that Pedrobob's winning bets didn't pay for the losing bets, meaning he owes Betfair money...

Jeff

[pedrobob]

Just got email back from Betfair - just giving me spiel about reduction factors. Ive sent them a nice reply back!
I knew I shouldnt have touched it but was still seething about the night before. It was my first time trading US races - didnt know about market being suspended as they arrived at the start. Did a big lay, market got suspended...won by 15 lengths, lost a lot. Won on virtually every race after to get most of my money back until those non runners... should have known as Betfair have just reminded me of their names...Giant move and Risky red!!!

[andyfuller]

Option A is clearly didn't happen, as Pedrobob wouldn't owe money if it had.

Option B is the fair, honorable option, but there's not a snowflake in hell's chance of it happening!

So I'm guessing Betfair went for Option C, and the Rule 4 deductions mean that Pedrobob's winning bets didn't pay for the losing bets, meaning he owes Betfair money...

If Betfair screwed up, I don't see why Pedrobob should lose money.

If I were him, I'd fight it.

I would be the first to agree if Betfair had done something wrong you should fight it but in this case they have done nothing wrong imo.

It is down to the individual to know who does and does not run at the time you place your bet.

Betfair have to wait until they have confirmation from their sources that a horse is a definite non runner before they can pull it from a market. Therefore there is always going to be a delay between a non runner being announced and Betfair pulling the horse. During which time some people will have bet and may now be getting worse odds once the R4 is applied than they thought they were getting.

So what can they do? There will always be someone betting not aware of the NR.

The fact the over round was way off highlights that 'the market' was aware of the NR's so it was very unlikely that this information was being held by a select few.

It was just our individual was not aware.

So A would be vastly unfair on the people on the other side of your bet and why should Betfair make up for your error in not knowing a horse wasn't out. What about me, who had bet on the same horse as you at the same odds happy in the knowledge there was a non runner and my odds would reduce. Why should my bet be voided?

With B why should you make extra money from your inability to be aware of the actual runners. They may as well just not have R4's.

It is buyer beware, I don't say that to sound harsh or like I don't feel sorry for the guy but it is extremely important people know about the markets they are betting in before doing so.

[Alpha322]

This is why
A I dont touch anything but UK markets now
B Or use Dutching/Bookmaking books

Basically dont wanna touch anything except the basics. The name BETFAIR suggests its a level playing field
It really isnt
I would fight it, how can you trade with money you dont have

[Iron]

Hi Andy

I can see this from both perspectives.

But by allowing Pedrobob to green up, were Betfair not essentially saying to him 'You'll make a profit here whatever happens'? And can he be blamed for taking them at their word?

BTW, if it makes Pedrobob feel better, I once greened up on an ante-post race! I won't say how much I lost!

Jeff

[andyfuller]

But by allowing Pedrobob to green up, were Betfair not essentially saying to him 'You'll make a profit here whatever happens'? And can he be blamed for taking them at their word?

Yes they were saying you will make this amount if all these horses still run. But they also said that if Horse A does not run your bets on that horse will have their odds reduced by a RF of X, likewise if Horse B doesn't run etc etc.

All the facts were there bar the one unknown, no one knows until they actually run which horses will run. Some will be WD early, as seems to be the case here, some will be WD at the last second as they won't load.

Their only failing was not to remove the horses not running from the market quicker. I agree they should improve this and have moaned at them before to have a publicly known set of rules they follow with regards to Withdrawals but as ever they don't. So just as with UK racing you don't know when they will remove a non runner. Sometimes it will be before the race sometime after the race.

[LeTiss]

I'm not sure why people are attacking BF here. It's up to their customers to know what they are getting themselves involved in

There's many examples of how the current book % will change with differing amounts of future runners.

I know Peter Webb made an absolute killing on last years X Factor, due to 4 wild card entries dramatically changing the book %.

[spreadbetting]

Gotta agree with LeTiss on this one, if you don't know the rules of the market you shouldn't be playing that market.

I learnt a long time ago Betfair are very lax with non runners, especially the US ones. If something appears to be too good to be true you'll usually end up red taking advantage.

There's been plenty of examples where people have been stuffed in the past betting into incomplete markets to take advantage of under/overrounds. In some cases I've seen people have been refunded or let off but with the horses I doubt they'll back down and will expect you to pay any shortfall.