UK General Election July 4th 2024 - Trading ONLY thread

[Archery1969]

Don't panic about debt. The UK is an entrepreneurial engine that you can't stop without draconian communism consuming the means of production.
Neither Tory or Labour are suggesting that.
Our response to Brexit has been a drag. I know a business that was successful enough pre-brexit to give up and did in the face of continuing bureacracy and supply line issues due to brexit.
This is the gist of the problem. Business needs smooth seamless processes. We've gone backwards in that respect. People are giving up, but everyone that trades with the EU have suffered costs that are pointless.
If Starmer can negotiate with the EU to remove that bureaucracy and get the same products and services that exist now and existed before brexit flowing without friction then I'm with him completely.

The EU will want something back in return 3 fold. It’s upto Sir Kier if his willing to accept those conditions.

Brexit was totally Cameron’s fault for allowing the vote in the first place.

What he should have done was to argue that the UK needs to be at the top table alongside France and Germany instead of allowing the public to cast a vote.

Once brexit happened, it was obvious the EU was going to shaft the UK, you were never going to get agreement from all 28 on what we wanted as we had left the club.

For any agreement going forward the EU will want allot of concessions which will probably alienate a large number of the UK electorate. If Starmer gets it wrong then he might only have 5 years in power and then we back to xyz.

But on the flipside if someone can present a coherent strategy for seamless trade with our biggest market it could turn Brexit into a triumph.
Albeit a nett tortuous waste of time.

But ask yourself a question, does the EU want anything the UK has to offer, if not then it’s a pointless negotiation and will always be one sided. Kier might win lots for business but it will come at a cost in other areas which many may not stomach come election 2029 etc.

[greenmark]

The EU will want something back in return 3 fold. It’s upto Sir Kier if his willing to accept those conditions.

Brexit was totally Cameron’s fault for allowing the vote in the first place.

What he should have done was to argue that the UK needs to be at the top table alongside France and Germany instead of allowing the public to cast a vote.

Once brexit happened, it was obvious the EU was going to shaft the UK, you were never going to get agreement from all 28 on what we wanted as we had left the club.

For any agreement going forward the EU will want allot of concessions which will probably alienate a large number of the UK electorate. If Starmer gets it wrong then he might only have 5 years in power and then we back to xyz.

But on the flipside if someone can present a coherent strategy for seamless trade with our biggest market it could turn Brexit into a triumph.
Albeit a nett tortuous waste of time.

But ask yourself a question, does the EU want anything the UK has to offer, if not then it’s a pointless negotiation and will always be one sided. Kier might win lots for business but it will come at a cost in other areas which many may not stomach come election 2029 etc.

Perhaps. As Euler alluded to, the EU is a political project. To concede anything to any member nation that leaves is a huge political issue for the EU.
But I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about common sense and the environment that EU import/export business's need. Surely 4 years on we should be mature enough to take stock and admit it ain't working. For us or the EU.
Doh! There my idealism goes again!

But the GE odds haven't budged still. I bit of drift on Reform's vote %, but nowt else.

[Archery1969]

Interesting article which goes against what the polls are saying. Does Labour really have it in the bag ?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c722eezx9n4o

Seems to suggest around 7 million are yet to make their minds up.

[Archery1969]

But on the flipside if someone can present a coherent strategy for seamless trade with our biggest market it could turn Brexit into a triumph.
Albeit a nett tortuous waste of time.

But ask yourself a question, does the EU want anything the UK has to offer, if not then it’s a pointless negotiation and will always be one sided. Kier might win lots for business but it will come at a cost in other areas which many may not stomach come election 2029 etc.

Perhaps. As Euler alluded to, the EU is a political project. To concede anything to any member nation that leaves is a huge political issue for the EU.
But I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about common sense and the environment that EU import/export business's need. Surely 4 years on we should be mature enough to take stock and admit it ain't working. For us or the EU.
Doh! There my idealism goes again!

But the GE odds haven't budged still. I bit of drift on Reform's vote %, but nowt else.

My point was does the EU really need what the UK exports or can they find those products / services elsewhere, cheaper, which by all accounts, they have since Brexit etc.

[greenmark]

But ask yourself a question, does the EU want anything the UK has to offer, if not then it’s a pointless negotiation and will always be one sided. Kier might win lots for business but it will come at a cost in other areas which many may not stomach come election 2029 etc.

Perhaps. As Euler alluded to, the EU is a political project. To concede anything to any member nation that leaves is a huge political issue for the EU.
But I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about common sense and the environment that EU import/export business's need. Surely 4 years on we should be mature enough to take stock and admit it ain't working. For us or the EU.
Doh! There my idealism goes again!

But the GE odds haven't budged still. I bit of drift on Reform's vote %, but nowt else.

My point was does the EU really need what the UK exports or can they find those products / services elsewhere, cheaper, which by all accounts, they have since Brexit etc.

I believe they do want to trade with us, but they've got the hump and are going to make any relaxation of frictional bureacracy hurt.
This point is the biggest of all in Brexit debate for me. The notion was freeing ourselves from the EU would allow exploration of greater opportunities.
It was complete bollocks. 4 years on and I'm still right. Prove me wrong and I will be the happiest, most apologetic and contrite. The clock is still ticking on that. Reform is the next phase of outrageous misinformation. Can we fall for this crap again?

[Archery1969]

Perhaps. As Euler alluded to, the EU is a political project. To concede anything to any member nation that leaves is a huge political issue for the EU.
But I'm not talking about politics, I'm talking about common sense and the environment that EU import/export business's need. Surely 4 years on we should be mature enough to take stock and admit it ain't working. For us or the EU.
Doh! There my idealism goes again!

But the GE odds haven't budged still. I bit of drift on Reform's vote %, but nowt else.

My point was does the EU really need what the UK exports or can they find those products / services elsewhere, cheaper, which by all accounts, they have since Brexit etc.

I believe they do want to trade with us, but they've got the hump and are going to make any relaxation of frictional bureacracy hurt.
This point is the biggest of all in Brexit debate for me. The notion was freeing ourselves from the EU would allow exploration of greater opportunities.
It was complete bollocks. 4 years on and I'm still right. Prove me wrong and I will be the happiest, most apologetic and contrite. The clock is still ticking on that. Reform is the next phase of outrageous misinformation. Can we fall for this crap again?

You might not fall for it again, sure you didnt to begin with, but many will. Add up the vote share after 4th July. I suspect the party that wins, once again won’t have the biggest percentage of the overall vote share across the UK. Which means millions are absolute crackers.

[greenmark]

My point was does the EU really need what the UK exports or can they find those products / services elsewhere, cheaper, which by all accounts, they have since Brexit etc.

I believe they do want to trade with us, but they've got the hump and are going to make any relaxation of frictional bureacracy hurt.
This point is the biggest of all in Brexit debate for me. The notion was freeing ourselves from the EU would allow exploration of greater opportunities.
It was complete bollocks. 4 years on and I'm still right. Prove me wrong and I will be the happiest, most apologetic and contrite. The clock is still ticking on that. Reform is the next phase of outrageous misinformation. Can we fall for this crap again?

You might not fall for it again, sure you didnt to begin with, but many will. Add up the vote share after 4th July. I suspect the party that wins, once again won’t have the biggest percentage of the overall vote share across the UK. Which means millions are absolute crackers.

Well the whole PR debate is not something I've looked into and won't impact this GE. Neither Labour or Cons will have it in their manifesto. I think I'm right in saying Libs have gone quiet on the issue. They still believe in it, but it's far from being front and centre of their manifesto.
I'm all for democracy, but I'm seriously concerned about 20% of the electorate voting Reform. And I recognise that my potentially not accepting a democratically elected Reform govt would be hypocritical, but the very idea of Farage or his successor running the country scares the bejaysus out of me.

[Archery1969]

I believe they do want to trade with us, but they've got the hump and are going to make any relaxation of frictional bureacracy hurt.
This point is the biggest of all in Brexit debate for me. The notion was freeing ourselves from the EU would allow exploration of greater opportunities.
It was complete bollocks. 4 years on and I'm still right. Prove me wrong and I will be the happiest, most apologetic and contrite. The clock is still ticking on that. Reform is the next phase of outrageous misinformation. Can we fall for this crap again?

You might not fall for it again, sure you didnt to begin with, but many will. Add up the vote share after 4th July. I suspect the party that wins, once again won’t have the biggest percentage of the overall vote share across the UK. Which means millions are absolute crackers.

Well the whole PR debate is not something I've looked into and won't impact this GE. Neither Labour or Cons will have it in their manifesto. I think I'm right in saying Libs have gone quiet on the issue. They still believe in it, but it's far from being front and centre of their manifesto.
I'm all for democracy, but I'm seriously concerned about 20% of the electorate voting Reform. And I recognise that my potentially not accepting a democratically elected Reform govt would be hypocritical, but the very idea of Farage or his successor running the country scares the bejaysus out of me.

But think about it, PR works very well on the continent, has done for decades, even with nutjob parties involved. Yes, they have a big vote share but other parties combined vote share means they don’t influence much if anything. Usually the big 3 in combined government do a good and fair job, which basically means between they had over 80% of the vote. Which is allot fairer. But it does allow the smaller parties to challenge and keep those in power somewhat more honest. A small party in Switzerland challenged their countries liberal firearms laws with 300,000 signatures. They did fail but as a consequence it did manage to tighten some areas. Without PR that would never have been possible previously.

[greenmark]

You might not fall for it again, sure you didnt to begin with, but many will. Add up the vote share after 4th July. I suspect the party that wins, once again won’t have the biggest percentage of the overall vote share across the UK. Which means millions are absolute crackers.

Well the whole PR debate is not something I've looked into and won't impact this GE. Neither Labour or Cons will have it in their manifesto. I think I'm right in saying Libs have gone quiet on the issue. They still believe in it, but it's far from being front and centre of their manifesto.
I'm all for democracy, but I'm seriously concerned about 20% of the electorate voting Reform. And I recognise that my potentially not accepting a democratically elected Reform govt would be hypocritical, but the very idea of Farage or his successor running the country scares the bejaysus out of me.

But think about it, PR works very well on the continent, has done for decades, even with nutjob parties involved. Yes, they have a big vote share but other parties combined vote share means they don’t influence much if anything. Usually the big 3 in combined government do a good and fair job, which basically means between they had over 80% of the vote. Which is allot fairer. But it does allow the smaller parties to challenge and keep those in power somewhat more honest. A small party in Switzerland challenged their countries liberal firearms laws with 300,000 signatures. They did fail but as a consequence it did manage to tighten some areas. Without PR that would never have been possible previously.

OK. Some homework on PR for me there. And I agree the French and Italians are more than happy to swap from far right to far left in the blink of an election. I kind of like that. Politicians are just servants in a democracy and if they screw up it's bye bye.
Pehaps we are far too polite (or ridiculously optimistic or deeply entrenched) for that. But anyway, less than two weeks to know what the nation really thinks.
The odds still are stuck on a Labour landslide.

[Archery1969]

Well the whole PR debate is not something I've looked into and won't impact this GE. Neither Labour or Cons will have it in their manifesto. I think I'm right in saying Libs have gone quiet on the issue. They still believe in it, but it's far from being front and centre of their manifesto.
I'm all for democracy, but I'm seriously concerned about 20% of the electorate voting Reform. And I recognise that my potentially not accepting a democratically elected Reform govt would be hypocritical, but the very idea of Farage or his successor running the country scares the bejaysus out of me.

But think about it, PR works very well on the continent, has done for decades, even with nutjob parties involved. Yes, they have a big vote share but other parties combined vote share means they don’t influence much if anything. Usually the big 3 in combined government do a good and fair job, which basically means between they had over 80% of the vote. Which is allot fairer. But it does allow the smaller parties to challenge and keep those in power somewhat more honest. A small party in Switzerland challenged their countries liberal firearms laws with 300,000 signatures. They did fail but as a consequence it did manage to tighten some areas. Without PR that would never have been possible previously.

OK. Some homework on PR for me there. And I agree the French and Italians are more than happy to swap from far right to far left in the blink of an election. I kind of like that. Politicians are just servants in a democracy and if they screw up it's bye bye.
Pehaps we are far too polite (or ridiculously optimistic or deeply entrenched) for that. But anyway, less than two weeks to know what the nation really thinks.
The odds still are stuck on a Labour landslide.

+ 1

Of course a labour landslide.

But around 7 million won’t vote for them. We live n a democracy and everyone has to accept the outcome. But that a large number of the population with potentially no influence and will feel left out, once again.

It’s never good, regardless of political persuasions if one party has an unchallenged majority.

Didn’t work well under Thatcher, Blair or Boris. Did it ?

PR is not perfect but much more perfect than 1st past the post type of electoral elections.

The idea behind PR is that even if one party wins, they can never have a majority and will need to work with others to get things done. It’s another way of keeping those in power in check and accountable.

[greenmark]

But think about it, PR works very well on the continent, has done for decades, even with nutjob parties involved. Yes, they have a big vote share but other parties combined vote share means they don’t influence much if anything. Usually the big 3 in combined government do a good and fair job, which basically means between they had over 80% of the vote. Which is allot fairer. But it does allow the smaller parties to challenge and keep those in power somewhat more honest. A small party in Switzerland challenged their countries liberal firearms laws with 300,000 signatures. They did fail but as a consequence it did manage to tighten some areas. Without PR that would never have been possible previously.

OK. Some homework on PR for me there. And I agree the French and Italians are more than happy to swap from far right to far left in the blink of an election. I kind of like that. Politicians are just servants in a democracy and if they screw up it's bye bye.
Pehaps we are far too polite (or ridiculously optimistic or deeply entrenched) for that. But anyway, less than two weeks to know what the nation really thinks.
The odds still are stuck on a Labour landslide.

+ 1

Of course a labour landslide.

But around 7 million won’t vote for them. We live n a democracy and everyone has to accept the outcome. But that a large number of the population with potentially no influence and will feel left out, once again.

It’s never good, regardless of political persuasions if one party has an unchallenged majority.

Didn’t work well under Thatcher, Blair or Boris. Did it ?

PR is not perfect but much more perfect than 1st past the post type of electoral elections.

The idea behind PR is that even if one party wins, they can never have a majority and will need to work with others to get things done. It’s another way of keeping those in power in check and accountable.

I wonder how many of us voters have had a discussion with our MP/election candidates or even their reps.
I'm 63 and have never met any of them from any party.
Democracy is a funny old thing.

[Archery1969]

OK. Some homework on PR for me there. And I agree the French and Italians are more than happy to swap from far right to far left in the blink of an election. I kind of like that. Politicians are just servants in a democracy and if they screw up it's bye bye.
Pehaps we are far too polite (or ridiculously optimistic or deeply entrenched) for that. But anyway, less than two weeks to know what the nation really thinks.
The odds still are stuck on a Labour landslide.

+ 1

Of course a labour landslide.

But around 7 million won’t vote for them. We live n a democracy and everyone has to accept the outcome. But that a large number of the population with potentially no influence and will feel left out, once again.

It’s never good, regardless of political persuasions if one party has an unchallenged majority.

Didn’t work well under Thatcher, Blair or Boris. Did it ?

PR is not perfect but much more perfect than 1st past the post type of electoral elections.

The idea behind PR is that even if one party wins, they can never have a majority and will need to work with others to get things done. It’s another way of keeping those in power in check and accountable.

I wonder how many of us voters have had a discussion with our MP/election candidates or even their reps.
I'm 63 and have never met any of them from any party.
Democracy is a funny old thing.

Probably < 15% have…

[Derek27]

James Cleverclogs, bragging that flights to Rwanda have already started!!

He stopped short of saying how many migrants [2?] were sent or how much they were paid.

[Derek27]

More Tory members caught betting on the GE date. Tory chief data officer, Nick Mason, placed dozens of bets and has taken leave of absence.

GC asking the big bookies to report bets of more than £20 pounds. For such a small amount, I'm not sure why they're only asking the big bookies.

[Archery1969]

Looks like the TUC wants Kier to implement the same system as applied in Australia when it comes to employee leave entitlements.

1. Annual Leave:
• Four weeks of paid leave per year for full-time and part-time employees.
• Five weeks for shift workers.
2. Personal/Carer’s Leave:
• Ten days of paid leave per year for personal illness or to care for a family member.
3. Parental Leave:
• 12 months of unpaid leave, with an option to request an additional 12 months.
• Paid leave may be available from the government.
4. Long Service Leave:
• Entitlement varies by state and typically applies after 10 years with the same employer.
5. Public Holidays:
• Paid leave for public holidays based on ordinary hours.

I bet a fair few employers are going to be getting shot of staff via multiple means if Kier implements the above etc.