Israel/Palestine conflict

[greenmark]

Wake up, I posted that 2 days ago. You need to have a word with your intelligence sources.

Just saying, Tony Blair is the weapons of mass destruction and Iraq expert.
What the f*ck is going on in Iraq - YCMIU

Iraq as no money, Iran has no money. Both under international sanctions.

Their way of life, in general, does not allign with western values. A million miles apart.

They dont like being invaded (Iraq) and they dont like being told what todo by USA, Europe or anyone else.

Afghanistan is in the same boat, as is Lebanon and Gaza.

The west has enough things to deal with at home. Not their place or right to be the worlds Police.

Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?

To your question:
"Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?"

I honestly believe without those interventions things would be even worse.
Allow Saddam and Gaddafi to continue?
Taking on Afghanistan has defeated the very best fighting forces. Was that worth it? You would know better than me. Seems to me what we achieved in Afghanistan was no more than a pause in their engrained right wing fundamentalism.
I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

[Archery1969]

Just saying, Tony Blair is the weapons of mass destruction and Iraq expert.
What the f*ck is going on in Iraq - YCMIU

Iraq as no money, Iran has no money. Both under international sanctions.

Their way of life, in general, does not allign with western values. A million miles apart.

They dont like being invaded (Iraq) and they dont like being told what todo by USA, Europe or anyone else.

Afghanistan is in the same boat, as is Lebanon and Gaza.

The west has enough things to deal with at home. Not their place or right to be the worlds Police.

Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?

To your question:
"Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?"

I honestly believe without those interventions things would be even worse.
Allow Saddam and Gaddafi to continue?
Taking on Afghanistan has defeated the very best fighting forces. Was that worth it? You would know better than me. Seems to me what we achieved in Afghanistan was no more than a pause in their engrained right wing fundamentalism.
I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

On the question of money, just the cost to the UK, look at these figures, not all wars but the numbers are mind blowing, even taking into account wastage and/or corruption. You can double check the figures on-line.

[greenmark]

Iraq as no money, Iran has no money. Both under international sanctions.

Their way of life, in general, does not allign with western values. A million miles apart.

They dont like being invaded (Iraq) and they dont like being told what todo by USA, Europe or anyone else.

Afghanistan is in the same boat, as is Lebanon and Gaza.

The west has enough things to deal with at home. Not their place or right to be the worlds Police.

Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?

To your question:
"Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?"

I honestly believe without those interventions things would be even worse.
Allow Saddam and Gaddafi to continue?
Taking on Afghanistan has defeated the very best fighting forces. Was that worth it? You would know better than me. Seems to me what we achieved in Afghanistan was no more than a pause in their engrained right wing fundamentalism.
I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

On the question of money, just the cost to the UK, look at these figures, not all wars but the numbers are mind blowing, even taking into account wastage and/or corruption. You can double check the figures on-line.

The money doesn't bother me really.
What bothers me is the future from these conflicts.
How many times do we need to see that war and brutal dictatorship doesn't work?
Thats really what concerns me about Israel/Gaza on top of the terrible carnage.
What a store of hatred that has been stoked to red hot.

[Archery1969]

To your question:
"Take all the wars the west has got involved in since 2000. I dont know but I am sure all that money could have been better spent on one's own doorstep. Again, what did there interventions actually achieve, is the world a safer place now than it was back then ?"

I honestly believe without those interventions things would be even worse.
Allow Saddam and Gaddafi to continue?
Taking on Afghanistan has defeated the very best fighting forces. Was that worth it? You would know better than me. Seems to me what we achieved in Afghanistan was no more than a pause in their engrained right wing fundamentalism.
I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

On the question of money, just the cost to the UK, look at these figures, not all wars but the numbers are mind blowing, even taking into account wastage and/or corruption. You can double check the figures on-line.

The money doesn't bother me really.
What bothers me is the future from these conflicts.
How many times do we need to see that war and brutal dictatorship doesn't work?
Thats really what concerns me about Israel/Gaza on top of the terrible carnage.
What a store of hatred that has been stoked to red hot.

True.

[firlandsfarm]

The west has enough things to deal with at home. Not their place or right to be the worlds Police.

'The West' cannot be the world's police, why do we always think our way of life is so totally 'correct' that all countries should follow us? Many of them think their way of life is totally 'correct' and we are wrong ... who is to say which is right and which is wrong?

[firlandsfarm]

I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

The Taliban are Afghans!

[Michael5482]

My main point on this is cheap chicken has a weird effect on my metabolism, I feel hyped up, metabolism goes bonkers, heart rate and breathing elevated for no apparent reason. Doesn't happen with organic free-range. Bizarre but real enough that I avoid cheap chicken now.

I always look for organic chicken

Yes everything we buy meat wise is organic, costs a bit more but the quality is worth it. There's an organic farm (Cross Lanes Organic Farm) 30 mins away near Barnard Castle so go there once a month or so to stock up and bit of breakfast.

Decent local butchers are becoming few and far between and never really advertise where the meat comes from other then it's "British". I steer well clear of halal meat as well, absolutely barbaric and should be banned full stop.

[greenmark]

I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

The Taliban are Afghans!

Of course but they are a religious sect that seized power by force.
I cannot accept their right to ruin the lives of women. The Taliban are a blot on the face of humanity.

The women in my family were at least as mentally/emotionally/intellectually as strong as the men.
To sideline 50% of the population for relgious/cultural idealogy is a concept that deserves to be challenged.
To deprive girls of education and qualified professional women of employment is just so insane I can't even describe it.
Well, I can but it would involve exasperation and expletives.

[Michael5482]

I actually feel guilty that we've abandoned the Afghans to the Taliban. But I didn't have to face the Taliban trying to kill me every day.

The Taliban are Afghans!

Of course but they are a religious sect that seized power by force.
I cannot accept their right to ruin the lives of women. The Taliban are a blot on the face of humanity.

The women in my family were at least as mentally/emotionally/intellectually as strong as the men.
To sideline 50% of the population for relgious/cultural idealogy is a concept that deserves to be challenged.
To deprive girls of education and qualified professional women of employment is just so insane I can't even describe it.
Well, I can but it would involve exasperation and expletives.

Not allowed to challenge it in the UK, Islam is beyond criticism in the UK especially at Government level who pander to it. For what's worth it's a barbaric religion still stuck in the dark ages, should forced to move with the times or be banned in the UK.

[greenmark]

The Taliban are Afghans!

Of course but they are a religious sect that seized power by force.
I cannot accept their right to ruin the lives of women. The Taliban are a blot on the face of humanity.

The women in my family were at least as mentally/emotionally/intellectually as strong as the men.
To sideline 50% of the population for relgious/cultural idealogy is a concept that deserves to be challenged.
To deprive girls of education and qualified professional women of employment is just so insane I can't even describe it.
Well, I can but it would involve exasperation and expletives.

Not allowed to challenge it in the UK, Islam is beyond criticism in the UK especially at Government level who pander to it. For what's worth it's a barbaric religion still stuck in the dark ages, should forced to move with the times or be banned in the UK.

I disagree. It's not Islam, this is the Taliban's interpretation of Islam. Those two are massively different in my experience. I worked with Muslim women and I could not imagine them being prevented from being alongside me. The Taliban are basically nuts. Muslims basically are not.

[Big Bad Barney]

Observed as a group they're all about as nuts as each other if you ask me;

A quick google of Halal/Kosher meat.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27324224

Not allowed to stun if it's really meant to be Halal. No thought for the animal, only what the 'scriptures' say...

The fundamental problem is indoctrinated group thought overriding individual thought.....that's the central tenant of all religion... it's a fail if the leaders are bad

[greenmark]

Observed as a group they're all about as nuts as each other if you ask me;

A quick google of Halal/Kosher meat.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-27324224

Not allowed to stun if it's really meant to be Halal. No thought for the animal, only what the 'scriptures' say...

The fundamental problem is indoctrinated group thought overriding individual thought.....that's the central tenant of all religion... it's a fail if the leaders are bad

I could not possibly have said that to my Muslim colleagues and I also don't agree at all.
And killing an animal for food is just that. How you do it is almst irrelevent.
Every time you eat meat some animal has been slaughtered. Don't get upset about halal, it's hypocritical.

[Big Bad Barney]

I could not possibly have said that to my Muslim colleagues and I also don't agree at all.
And killing an animal for food is just that. How you do it is almst irrelevent.
Every time you eat meat some animal has been slaughtered. Don't get upset about halal, it's hypocritical.

I don't really understand the logic of the 'how' being irrelevant or hypocritical? It's one part of the dilemma.

Take the following two hypothetical examples;

a) I cuddle a seal, give it an asprin, club it to death, and eat it
b) None of the above, I just eat it without first killing it, one mouthful at a time (it would end up dead after I finish the meal several days later) Likely in horrible pain (no asprin you see).

Are you saying there is no difference between a and b? Hopefully you see that I have gone to the polar of the spectrum to illustrate my opinion.

[greenmark]

I could not possibly have said that to my Muslim colleagues and I also don't agree at all.
And killing an animal for food is just that. How you do it is almst irrelevent.
Every time you eat meat some animal has been slaughtered. Don't get upset about halal, it's hypocritical.

I don't really understand the logic of the 'how' being irrelevant or hypocritical? It's one part of the dilemma.

Take the following two hypothetical examples;

a) I cuddle a seal, give it an asprin, club it to death, and eat it
b) None of the above, I just eat it without first killing it, one mouthful at a time (it would end up dead after I finish the meal several days later) Likely in horrible pain (no asprin you see).

Are you saying there is no difference between a and b? Hopefully you see that I have gone to the polar of the spectrum to illustrate my opinion.

I guess I would need ti debate with a halal and non-halal slautghterman (person).
I, of course, don't want animals to suffer. But the bottom line is the meat you eat is the result of slaughter and too many live in awful conditions until they are slaughtered.
Focussing on halal seems redundant to me. I will never give up being a meat eater, but I recognise the process of putting meat on my plate is brutal.
I think if you believe halal is unacceptablle you need to stop eating meat. All slaughter is brutal. Stunning pre-slaughter is wafer thin justification.
One of my bosses became a project manager went to a chicken processing plant. Never ate chicken again.

[Big Bad Barney]

I guess I would need ti debate with a halal and non-halal slautghterman (person).
I, of course, don't want animals to suffer. But the bottom line is the meat you eat is the result of slaughter and too many live in awful conditions until they are slaughtered.
Focussing on halal seems redundant to me. I will never give up being a meat eater, but I recognise the process of putting meat on my plate is brutal.
I think if you believe halal is unacceptablle you need to stop eating meat. All slaughter is brutal. Stunning pre-slaughter is wafer thin justification.
One of my bosses became a project manager went to a chicken processing plant. Never ate chicken again.

Well there's two questions. Should you even do it in the first place, and if so do you make effort to reduce suffering? To really debate it one has to go and jump ethics forums, etc...

The thing is it doesn't have to be brutal. We have the capability of doing it in a nice way....If its not, it's probably being done wrong for capitalist or religious reasons rather than moral ones.

In the end I guess it's off topic. My main gripe is religion dictating how it should be done without the moral question being analysed. I.e. It's 'in the writings' and that's good enough thought on the subject...It flows into why people get into violent conflict.