i don't disagree and many wiser than me have tried and failed, however, while bitcoin's value may not be tied to physical assets, its unique properties, growing adoption, and technological foundation provide a basis for its valuation. i think the market's recognition of these factors contributes to its perceived and actual value. and as noted earlier, the fact that it can be used outside the confines of the market to buy/sell goods does extend its utility. that said, could buy a pint of milk and loaf of bread for the equivalent of £3 in the morning and find that in reality, it ended up *costing* £4 by end of the day!!Euler wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:33 pmIn theory.jimibt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:27 pmyeah, but, while derivatives do not require holding the underlying asset, their value is closely tied to the performance and perception of the asset in the broader market. in short, there would still be an alignment in price between bitcoin derivatives and the bitcoin market.
The problem with BTC is that's it's not tied to anything, it's impossible to work out it's true value.
BITCOIN as an alternative to regular currency
More like £4kjimibt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:42 pmi don't disagree and many wiser than me have tried and failed, however, while bitcoin's value may not be tied to physical assets, its unique properties, growing adoption, and technological foundation provide a basis for its valuation. i think the market's recognition of these factors contributes to its perceived and actual value. and as noted earlier, the fact that it can be used outside the confines of the market to buy/sell goods does extend its utility. that said, could buy a pint of milk and loaf of bread for the equivalent of £3 in the morning and find that in reality, it ended up *costing* £4 by end of the day!!Euler wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:33 pmIn theory.jimibt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 1:27 pm
yeah, but, while derivatives do not require holding the underlying asset, their value is closely tied to the performance and perception of the asset in the broader market. in short, there would still be an alignment in price between bitcoin derivatives and the bitcoin market.
The problem with BTC is that's it's not tied to anything, it's impossible to work out it's true value.
Words are being used to justify valuation rather than a concrete use or yield. So I think that confines it to a purely speculative play.
That's OK, but as long as you understand the risks.
It relies on the greater fool theory, as does any speculation.
- ruthlessimon
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Saylor's recent interview on Valuetainment is worth watching
The dead air when asked about Satoshi's identity was mad. Why is that question off limits?
https://youtu.be/rT7Dvh3QV1A?si=DHMCo4FVwmJ6rLUe&t=222
IMO, if the U.S. economy wobbles, bitcoin's down 50%, with MSTR potentially down 90%
That said momentum is in full swing here, now is not the time to be short.
The dead air when asked about Satoshi's identity was mad. Why is that question off limits?
https://youtu.be/rT7Dvh3QV1A?si=DHMCo4FVwmJ6rLUe&t=222
IMO, if the U.S. economy wobbles, bitcoin's down 50%, with MSTR potentially down 90%
That said momentum is in full swing here, now is not the time to be short.
- ruthlessimon
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MicroStrategy's "intelligent leverage" explained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5LKZ1-6BWM
https://youtu.be/Vh8Jkpe9zHw?si=4JV2jwzuhmTxJM3R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5LKZ1-6BWM
https://youtu.be/Vh8Jkpe9zHw?si=4JV2jwzuhmTxJM3R
- Big Bad Barney
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Why can't I use Ethereum or Doge coin or whatever instead of Bitcoin? I.e. what does it matter if the number of bitcoins are scarce if 100 or any number of other 'scarce' things do the same thing? or is bitcoin different in some way that makes the others unusable for the same purpose?jimibt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 11:56 amPhysical vs. Digital: Gold's scarcity is tied to its physical presence and the challenges of extraction. Bitcoin's scarcity is a result of its digital design and the rules set by its protocol.
Market Impact: Both assets' scarcity contributes to their value. However, Bitcoin's fixed supply and predictable issuance schedule can make it more appealing to those who value certainty in scarcity.
I.e. Their utility is not unique, so what makes bitcoin scarce?
Same with gold.... apart from its utility as an industrial metal, it has a portion of speculative value and also the value that 'the government said so'..... one could just as easily use any metal to peg paper dollar value? Yes?
Consider also, say that musk dude heads off into space and brings back an asteroid of pure gold. Your bread will probably have costed you 4grand tomorrow too...it's just statistically unlikely to happen... and that's the game isn't it
I think it's scarce partly because only a set number can exist - not sure how many but it's limited.Big Bad Barney wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 7:40 pmWhy can't I use Ethereum or Doge coin or whatever instead of Bitcoin? I.e. what does it matter if the number of bitcoins are scarce if 100 or any number of other 'scarce' things do the same thing? or is bitcoin different in some way that makes the others unusable for the same purpose?jimibt wrote: ↑Tue Nov 19, 2024 11:56 amPhysical vs. Digital: Gold's scarcity is tied to its physical presence and the challenges of extraction. Bitcoin's scarcity is a result of its digital design and the rules set by its protocol.
Market Impact: Both assets' scarcity contributes to their value. However, Bitcoin's fixed supply and predictable issuance schedule can make it more appealing to those who value certainty in scarcity.
I.e. Their utility is not unique, so what makes bitcoin scarce?
Same with gold.... apart from its utility as an industrial metal, it has a portion of speculative value and also the value that 'the government said so'..... one could just as easily use any metal to peg paper dollar value? Yes?
Consider also, say that musk dude heads off into space and brings back an asteroid of pure gold. Your bread will probably have costed you 4grand tomorrow too...it's just statistically unlikely to happen... and that's the game isn't it
People spend $1,000 on an iphone, but they don't have to; they could buy a Chinese phone that does the same stuff for a tenth of that. They pay subs and fees to Microsoft for Word and Excel but could do much of the same stuff for nothing. Similar idea with Aston Martin - just a moving box on 4 wheels, but people pay big bucks to own a big brand name product.
So what other coins don't have but bitcoin does is brand identity. Corporations pay billions for that, so along with limited supply, its value is a masterstroke of genius, albeit most likely originally unintentional. Like Apple, Visa or Amazon, a huge part of its value lies in its brand.
- Big Bad Barney
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To me 'Currency' or 'Store of value' is a utility.weemac wrote: ↑Fri Nov 22, 2024 8:23 pmI think it's scarce partly because only a set number can exist - not sure how many but it's limited.
People spend $1,000 on an iphone, but they don't have to; they could buy a Chinese phone that does the same stuff for a tenth of that. They pay subs and fees to Microsoft for Word and Excel but could do much of the same stuff for nothing. Similar idea with Aston Martin - just a moving box on 4 wheels, but people pay big bucks to own a big brand name product.
So what other coins don't have but bitcoin does is brand identity. Corporations pay billions for that, so along with limited supply, its value is a masterstroke of genius, albeit most likely originally unintentional. Like Apple, Visa or Amazon, a huge part of its value lies in its brand.
Where as Iphones, Aston Martins or the other products you mention have a utility component, but also a value attributed to fashion, comfort, efficiency, status symbol, etc...
If the premise that crypto is 100% utility, they are not scarce as 1000's of them provide the same utility. (as does traditional banking facilities etc). Which ever performs it function best is what typically gets chosen....for example, you don't see too many people turning down $100 notes when 2x$50 notes can achieve the same thing. (speaking generally )
Is that premise wrong, and Is bitcoin really a fashion statement? Maybe...but I think it's fairly widely agreed that bitcoin is useless as a currency. More widely contested that it's a useful store of value.... like really...are you going to pay more so you can tell your buddies you've got bitcoin rather than blahcoin for the purposes of a hedge against civilisation ending? Surely, they'd laugh at you on two fronts?
The value of Fashion probably relies on the greater fool principle as well (or is it the greater fool theory).
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Imagine logging into an account to see you have 600 million of Bitcoin in it and can't access it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77jx4d5748o
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77jx4d5748o
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Michael5482 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 10:10 amImagine logging into an account to see you have 600 million of Bitcoin in it and can't access it
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c77jx4d5748o
Best of luck with finding that - needle in a haystack
Last edited by ForFolksSake on Fri Dec 06, 2024 10:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bitcoin's "only legitimate use" is for criminal enterprises...
Cryptocurrency is primarily used "for bribes, scams on the internet" and by cartels...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWQfsx9Fj3A
Cryptocurrency is primarily used "for bribes, scams on the internet" and by cartels...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWQfsx9Fj3A