Excuses, Excuses, Excuses

[Dublin_Flyer]

PR keeps popping up as the solution to the failure of our two party system (sometimes moderated by a narrow majority and fringe parties have enormous influence as the govt c**ps itself over every contentious issue).
But Labour are immovable for 5 years.
I'm not convinced that PR is any better. PR is dominant in Europe so maybe I'm wrong. They are doing better than us. Hmmm!

Of the 43 countries in Europe, 40 use some form of proportional representation.
All EEA countries, except Denmark, issue identity cards.

The UK is an outlier because none of our political parties have the bollocks to introduce ID cards

Indeed so. ID cards seem to be the devil's work for most Brits.
I'm not sure about ID cards. If you accept them as a definitive reference of identity you are at the mercy of the forgers.
I prefer the analogue version of identity. Who are you? What can you do? Does my personal radar say you're ok or a bit wonky.
As always I remain to be persuaded by a powerful argument.

Not identical but in a similar vein to ID cards, there's always uproar in Ireland when anyone suggests the use of fingerprint ID instead of ID cards for collecting all types of social welfare benefits (or attending in person monthly/quarterly if they're paid direct to bank account) on the basis that fingerprints = criminal.

The same people have no problem being fingerprinted at US Border Patrol when they fuck off on trips to New York doing their Christmas shopping.

I know there's different standards in different countries regarding fingerprints and how many "points of similarity" indicate a match varying from single figures up to 20s+, but if the UK and EU/European non EU members could come to some form of a consensus on what indicates a match, then it would make border controls, multi country (bogus) asylum seekers, and multi nation benefit cheats easier to track and stop.

Even if it was to be suggested officially, people will still complain about being on a database....if you pay tax, if you claim any form of benefit, if you travel abroad, if you message politicians, if you use a loyalty card, you're on a database somewhere. The only people not on a database probably live off the land in the woods and shit in a hole in the ground and bury it with twigs.

Regarding PR, I've seen 1st hand in my constituency the pro's and con's of it. In one of the recent elections the Sinn Fein candidate topped the poll on the 1st count with 3k or so votes but wasn't elected as the quota was about 8.5k. After all the eliminations and transfers of preferences, he still never got elected after everyone else was eliminated as he was still below quota when all seats were filled, they're just not a transfer-friendly party basically.

The irony is that the candidate is a great guy for local issues and would be a good representative voice of the area in government as a working peoples man, it's just the party is too Marmite for most people so he's either number 1 on your voting card or not on it at all.

[greenmark]

Of the 43 countries in Europe, 40 use some form of proportional representation.
All EEA countries, except Denmark, issue identity cards.

The UK is an outlier because none of our political parties have the bollocks to introduce ID cards

Indeed so. ID cards seem to be the devil's work for most Brits.
I'm not sure about ID cards. If you accept them as a definitive reference of identity you are at the mercy of the forgers.
I prefer the analogue version of identity. Who are you? What can you do? Does my personal radar say you're ok or a bit wonky.
As always I remain to be persuaded by a powerful argument.

Not identical but in a similar vein to ID cards, there's always uproar in Ireland when anyone suggests the use of fingerprint ID instead of ID cards for collecting all types of social welfare benefits (or attending in person monthly/quarterly if they're paid direct to bank account) on the basis that fingerprints = criminal.

The same people have no problem being fingerprinted at US Border Patrol when they fuck off on trips to New York doing their Christmas shopping.

I know there's different standards in different countries regarding fingerprints and how many "points of similarity" indicate a match varying from single figures up to 20s+, but if the UK and EU/European non EU members could come to some form of a consensus on what indicates a match, then it would make border controls, multi country (bogus) asylum seekers, and multi nation benefit cheats easier to track and stop.

Even if it was to be suggested officially, people will still complain about being on a database....if you pay tax, if you claim any form of benefit, if you travel abroad, if you message politicians, if you use a loyalty card, you're on a database somewhere. The only people not on a database probably live off the land in the woods and shit in a hole in the ground and bury it with twigs.

Regarding PR, I've seen 1st hand in my constituency the pro's and con's of it. In one of the recent elections the Sinn Fein candidate topped the poll on the 1st count with 3k or so votes but wasn't elected as the quota was about 8.5k. After all the eliminations and transfers of preferences, he still never got elected after everyone else was eliminated as he was still below quota when all seats were filled, they're just not a transfer-friendly party basically.

The irony is that the candidate is a great guy for local issues and would be a good representative voice of the area in government as a working peoples man, it's just the party is too Marmite for most people so he's either number 1 on your voting card or not on it at all.

I need to do some homework. I thought PR was simple. Most votes - you win. Good grief no wonder we're up a well known creek without a suitable implement.

[Dublin_Flyer]

Indeed so. ID cards seem to be the devil's work for most Brits.
I'm not sure about ID cards. If you accept them as a definitive reference of identity you are at the mercy of the forgers.
I prefer the analogue version of identity. Who are you? What can you do? Does my personal radar say you're ok or a bit wonky.
As always I remain to be persuaded by a powerful argument.

Not identical but in a similar vein to ID cards, there's always uproar in Ireland when anyone suggests the use of fingerprint ID instead of ID cards for collecting all types of social welfare benefits (or attending in person monthly/quarterly if they're paid direct to bank account) on the basis that fingerprints = criminal.

The same people have no problem being fingerprinted at US Border Patrol when they fuck off on trips to New York doing their Christmas shopping.

I know there's different standards in different countries regarding fingerprints and how many "points of similarity" indicate a match varying from single figures up to 20s+, but if the UK and EU/European non EU members could come to some form of a consensus on what indicates a match, then it would make border controls, multi country (bogus) asylum seekers, and multi nation benefit cheats easier to track and stop.

Even if it was to be suggested officially, people will still complain about being on a database....if you pay tax, if you claim any form of benefit, if you travel abroad, if you message politicians, if you use a loyalty card, you're on a database somewhere. The only people not on a database probably live off the land in the woods and shit in a hole in the ground and bury it with twigs.

Regarding PR, I've seen 1st hand in my constituency the pro's and con's of it. In one of the recent elections the Sinn Fein candidate topped the poll on the 1st count with 3k or so votes but wasn't elected as the quota was about 8.5k. After all the eliminations and transfers of preferences, he still never got elected after everyone else was eliminated as he was still below quota when all seats were filled, they're just not a transfer-friendly party basically.

The irony is that the candidate is a great guy for local issues and would be a good representative voice of the area in government as a working peoples man, it's just the party is too Marmite for most people so he's either number 1 on your voting card or not on it at all.

I need to do some homework. I thought PR was simple. Most votes - you win. Good grief no wonder we're up a well known creek without a suitable implement.

Sorry if I confused, PR-STV (Proportional representation - single transferable vote) is what we use, I'm not sure if it's the same as PR elsewhere. If your main vote isn't selected then your 2nd best transfers, if they're eliminated then your 3rd best transfers etc.
It can be used as a way of blocking out people/parties you definitely don't want your vote to go for - if there's 10 candidates but you DEFINITELY do not want 2 of them, then you put 1-8 as your first preferences and leave the 2 NO ones blank.

In a UK example if someone wanted anyone except Con/Lab and the running parties were 1 Con, 1 Lab, 1 Lib Dem, 1 Green, 1 Monster Raving Loony and 5 independents it would be:

5 Seater area, 10 candidates
1: Monster Raving Loony
2: Green
3: Lib Dem
4: Independent
5: Independent
6: Independent
7: Independent
8: Independent
9:
10:
The 9 and 10 are empty as it's a vote for anyone except Con/Lab and no votes would transfer to Con/Lab after lowest polling candidate is eliminated after each round. Your vote still counts though..... you're pretty much laying Con/Lab in BA talk

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/g ... sentation/

[Archery1969]

Not identical but in a similar vein to ID cards, there's always uproar in Ireland when anyone suggests the use of fingerprint ID instead of ID cards for collecting all types of social welfare benefits (or attending in person monthly/quarterly if they're paid direct to bank account) on the basis that fingerprints = criminal.

The same people have no problem being fingerprinted at US Border Patrol when they fuck off on trips to New York doing their Christmas shopping.

I know there's different standards in different countries regarding fingerprints and how many "points of similarity" indicate a match varying from single figures up to 20s+, but if the UK and EU/European non EU members could come to some form of a consensus on what indicates a match, then it would make border controls, multi country (bogus) asylum seekers, and multi nation benefit cheats easier to track and stop.

Even if it was to be suggested officially, people will still complain about being on a database....if you pay tax, if you claim any form of benefit, if you travel abroad, if you message politicians, if you use a loyalty card, you're on a database somewhere. The only people not on a database probably live off the land in the woods and shit in a hole in the ground and bury it with twigs.

Regarding PR, I've seen 1st hand in my constituency the pro's and con's of it. In one of the recent elections the Sinn Fein candidate topped the poll on the 1st count with 3k or so votes but wasn't elected as the quota was about 8.5k. After all the eliminations and transfers of preferences, he still never got elected after everyone else was eliminated as he was still below quota when all seats were filled, they're just not a transfer-friendly party basically.

The irony is that the candidate is a great guy for local issues and would be a good representative voice of the area in government as a working peoples man, it's just the party is too Marmite for most people so he's either number 1 on your voting card or not on it at all.

I need to do some homework. I thought PR was simple. Most votes - you win. Good grief no wonder we're up a well known creek without a suitable implement.

Sorry if I confused, PR-STV (Proportional representation - single transferable vote) is what we use, I'm not sure if it's the same as PR elsewhere. If your main vote isn't selected then your 2nd best transfers, if they're eliminated then your 3rd best transfers etc.
It can be used as a way of blocking out people/parties you definitely don't want your vote to go for - if there's 10 candidates but you DEFINITELY do not want 2 of them, then you put 1-8 as your first preferences and leave the 2 NO ones blank.

In a UK example if someone wanted anyone except Con/Lab and the running parties were 1 Con, 1 Lab, 1 Lib Dem, 1 Green, 1 Monster Raving Loony and 5 independents it would be:

5 Seater area, 10 candidates
1: Monster Raving Loony
2: Green
3: Lib Dem
4: Independent
5: Independent
6: Independent
7: Independent
8: Independent
9:
10:
The 9 and 10 are empty as it's a vote for anyone except Con/Lab and no votes would transfer to Con/Lab after lowest polling candidate is eliminated after each round. Your vote still counts though..... you're pretty much laying Con/Lab in BA talk

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/g ... sentation/

The fairest voting system in the world is The mixed-member proportional system. Its full implementation is in Germany, which makes sense after the wall fell and east/west was reunited.

Basically parties are forced to work together. The top one can appoint a PM, President and Chancellor but that doesnt mean they can run the country as they please.

You end up with top 3 voted parties in power and two of them can’t gang up on the other one. All 3 must negotiate and work together. If not, new elections.

A single persons vote carries allot of power at local, regional and national level. Hence, usually more people come out to vote. 2024 UK turnout vote percentage was 61%. The average in Germany is 74%.

[Dublin_Flyer]

I need to do some homework. I thought PR was simple. Most votes - you win. Good grief no wonder we're up a well known creek without a suitable implement.

Sorry if I confused, PR-STV (Proportional representation - single transferable vote) is what we use, I'm not sure if it's the same as PR elsewhere. If your main vote isn't selected then your 2nd best transfers, if they're eliminated then your 3rd best transfers etc.
It can be used as a way of blocking out people/parties you definitely don't want your vote to go for - if there's 10 candidates but you DEFINITELY do not want 2 of them, then you put 1-8 as your first preferences and leave the 2 NO ones blank.

In a UK example if someone wanted anyone except Con/Lab and the running parties were 1 Con, 1 Lab, 1 Lib Dem, 1 Green, 1 Monster Raving Loony and 5 independents it would be:

5 Seater area, 10 candidates
1: Monster Raving Loony
2: Green
3: Lib Dem
4: Independent
5: Independent
6: Independent
7: Independent
8: Independent
9:
10:
The 9 and 10 are empty as it's a vote for anyone except Con/Lab and no votes would transfer to Con/Lab after lowest polling candidate is eliminated after each round. Your vote still counts though..... you're pretty much laying Con/Lab in BA talk

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/g ... sentation/

The fairest voting system in the world is The mixed-member proportional system. Its full implementation is in Germany, which makes sense after the wall fell and east/west was reunited.

Basically parties are forced to work together. The top one can appoint a PM, President and Chancellor but that doesnt mean they can run the country as they please.

You end up with top 3 voted parties in power and two of them can’t gang up on the other one. All 3 must negotiate and work together. If not, new elections.

A single persons vote carries allot of power at local, regional and national level. Hence, usually more people come out to vote. 2024 UK turnout vote percentage was 61%. The average in Germany is 74%.

That's not too far away from what happens here Archery, nobody ever gets 50%+ and parties trying to form government rely on an alliance of usually the Greens or Labour(Labour in Ireland is very much different from Labour in UK), or a combination of Labour+Independents+something else to have a working majority in government, but the smaller parties always have their ONLYIF's to join as part of a power sharing government.

The issue most people have with this is the Independents form groups so get speaking time in our Dáil (House of Commons) and they just go on and on about local issues; the roads are shit in West Kerry and it's hurting local business because bus drivers want to avoid their towns. If there's a rumour of a housing complex being built nearby, they'll wan't cast iron guarantees that they will be filled with Irish first only. That type of shite.....and then we'll vote with the government.

It ends up being an almost majority of the country being held hostage by the wants and demands of small towns who would like their main road resurfaced.
Just google Healy-Rae, it's a Kerry (South West Ireland) area, and their family have a monopoly on elections for years now.

[Archery1969]

Sorry if I confused, PR-STV (Proportional representation - single transferable vote) is what we use, I'm not sure if it's the same as PR elsewhere. If your main vote isn't selected then your 2nd best transfers, if they're eliminated then your 3rd best transfers etc.
It can be used as a way of blocking out people/parties you definitely don't want your vote to go for - if there's 10 candidates but you DEFINITELY do not want 2 of them, then you put 1-8 as your first preferences and leave the 2 NO ones blank.

In a UK example if someone wanted anyone except Con/Lab and the running parties were 1 Con, 1 Lab, 1 Lib Dem, 1 Green, 1 Monster Raving Loony and 5 independents it would be:

5 Seater area, 10 candidates
1: Monster Raving Loony
2: Green
3: Lib Dem
4: Independent
5: Independent
6: Independent
7: Independent
8: Independent
9:
10:
The 9 and 10 are empty as it's a vote for anyone except Con/Lab and no votes would transfer to Con/Lab after lowest polling candidate is eliminated after each round. Your vote still counts though..... you're pretty much laying Con/Lab in BA talk

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/g ... sentation/

The fairest voting system in the world is The mixed-member proportional system. Its full implementation is in Germany, which makes sense after the wall fell and east/west was reunited.

Basically parties are forced to work together. The top one can appoint a PM, President and Chancellor but that doesnt mean they can run the country as they please.

You end up with top 3 voted parties in power and two of them can’t gang up on the other one. All 3 must negotiate and work together. If not, new elections.

A single persons vote carries allot of power at local, regional and national level. Hence, usually more people come out to vote. 2024 UK turnout vote percentage was 61%. The average in Germany is 74%.

That's not too far away from what happens here Archery, nobody ever gets 50%+ and parties trying to form government rely on an alliance of usually the Greens or Labour(Labour in Ireland is very much different from Labour in UK), or a combination of Labour+Independents+something else to have a working majority in government, but the smaller parties always have their ONLYIF's to join as part of a power sharing government.

The issue most people have with this is the Independents form groups so get speaking time in our Dáil (House of Commons) and they just go on and on about local issues; the roads are shit in West Kerry and it's hurting local business because bus drivers want to avoid their towns. If there's a rumour of a housing complex being built nearby, they'll wan't cast iron guarantees that they will be filled with Irish first only. That type of shite.....and then we'll vote with the government.

It ends up being an almost majority of the country being held hostage by the wants and demands of small towns who would like their main road resurfaced.
Just google Healy-Rae, it's a Kerry (South West Ireland) area, and their family have a monopoly on elections for years now.

Good to know.

Not saying it’s perfect but it’s got to be better than first past the post they put up with in the UK.

Labour got 38% of the vote, fair enough but that means 62% didn’t vote for them. Just seems rather nuts to me.

But it’s always been that way, so no problem.

Just wish they would stop saying WE got a mandate. They didn’t in mathematic terms.

[sionascaig]

Interesting thing about the Scottish PR one is you get two SMP's one local, one regional... (you get two votes which can be cast for anyone)..

Local one is 1st past the post & the Regional ones are allocated in such a way that overall party representation is consistent with country vote share.

Its designed so no one party can get over 50% of seats even if you get over 50% of vote !.... SNP managed it once but it was a quirk of the system...

The big benefit is that it forces MP's from all sides to work together...

It does not however stop eegits from being elected, but at least if you don't like the local SMP can go to the regional one!

[Michael5482]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

[sionascaig]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

That is exactly what drives the independence movements (people saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics).

It has nothing to do with "dislike" of our English friends but the hope that there must be something better than this Westminster circus.

Immigration is way way way down the list of concerns in Scotland though, so would argue the issue is much bigger than that.

[Michael5482]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

That is exactly what drives the independence movements (people saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics).

It has nothing to do with "dislike" of our English friends but the hope that there must be something better than this Westminster circus.

Immigration is way way way down the list of concerns in Scotland though, so would argue the issue is much bigger than that.

More accountability is needed it's like a merry-go-round in Scotland, SNP blamed Tory's, Tory's blames SNP now SNP will blame Labour and vice versa while the Scottish people suffer.

Devolution is a massive failure IMO but it's what politicians do they create a layer of insulation between them and culpability so can play the blame game while all keeping their snouts in the troff.

[sionascaig]

Devolution is a massive failure IMO but it's what politicians do they create a layer of insulation between them and culpability so can play the blame game while all keeping their snouts in the troff.

Ha.... I'd argue the opposite (to an extent at least)...

It highlights just how much better things could be and in some cases are, e.g. "free" university education.

Won't bore you with the list of benefits but yes there is certainly no gtee that the politicians we end up with are any more competent than those down south. If anything we have a smaller pool so should be worse.

I think they do a remarkable job given the cack hand that they are dealt by Westminster.

[Euler]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

I think this shows how angry people are. But I've not seen any concillatory tones from anybody in Government.

[conduirez]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

I think this shows how angry people are. But I've not seen any concillatory tones from anybody in Government.

I just signed it.

[ForFolksSake]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

Sweden now has below net zero immigration - how did they do it

They doubled the minimum salary requirement for immigrants, increased deportations, and reduced the number of refugees it took in by 80%

They also maintain a strong labour force.

And they've got ID cards - only way we are going to get control of it

[Archery1969]

Nothing will come off it obviously but appears to be gaining massive traction in such a short space of time, I read it as people just saying we've had enough of the political elite and Westminster politics. I genuinely think we are heading towards major civil unrest in the UK due to the continued negligence and oppression of British people. Politics has failed to move with the times and ignored the electorate for too long. Many MP's are way out of their depth and fail to put British people 1st. They've been told its racist, they've been told its discrimination, they've been told its prejudice when it is nothing of the sort.

Immigration is the easiest example, not once has the electorate voted for mass immigration, mass immigration has been rejected time and time again at the ballot box and yet it's still foisted upon us.

Starmer has done nothing to instil confidence in the political system or put British people 1st.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/700143

Sweden now has below net zero immigration - how did they do it

They doubled the minimum salary requirement for immigrants, increased deportations, and reduced the number of refugees it took in by 80%

They also maintain a strong labour force.

And they've got ID cards

Sweden has always been seen as one of the best places to live in the world based on affordability, quality of life and sustainability. They also have several national sovereign wealth funds.