Today's Horse Racing

[ForFolksSake]

How can this even be predicted, How can this mechanism be transparent enough to us?

aka Offering vs taking.

Still don't get it, I know that there are: bet placing, bet replacing, bet cancelation - it's clear and proven over the years mechanics. Afaik, there are no such parameters in bf's api, so, it's some abstraction and there is no place for such unclarity in rapidly changing hracing markets. Inplay is not the place for a crazy hft sht.

Ok, I'm a dum-dum, so help me to understand it: let's say we have some really weak market, it turns inplay and, few mil secs after, a manipulators money appears on really big back prices of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th favs, after 1-3 mil secs the manipulator cancels these unmatched orders. He's goal is to make an impression that something happened, to trigger other players bots to back the fav. And then there are some players who know the manipulator's strategy and they also put their orders to counter him. Are you starting to understand what kind of mess this could turn out to be? How this situation can be managed while staying transparent for all players?? And I gave only one example.
And what about "front runners" (not horses) who jump infront of your orders - that's gonna be some crazy leapfroging on hft steroids! Imagine how many complaints there will be that someone is constantly "stealing" their orders (or, more precisely, their matchings)!

Only manipulative parasitic assholes will benefit from this.

It will turn inplay hracing markets into hft hell. My hair stands on end when I think about it!

Bring it on .... this ain't no technological breakdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUUdQfnshJ4

[napshnap]

aka Offering vs taking.

Still don't get it,
....

Bring it on .... this ain't no technological breakdown

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUUdQfnshJ4

You need to have a "write your own bots for bf's api" -level experience (and to be a lil lazy/tired) to feel the pain !

[ShaunWhite]

Cancels have always been 0s so manipulators can already flash spoof orders and pull them milliseconds later. But are people betting in-running based on the weight of money or on real events and TPD?

0s delay doesn't mean anyone can get in front of you easier. Everyone will be doing exactly what they did before, just you'll see your offer as being available sooner. Don't you want that?

They've already hammered anyone using HFT (which isn't manipulative, it's just trading everything quickly, maybe using Guardian ) by reducing the number of transactions you can place an hour, no exeptions. That took a lot of market makers out of the game and the volume decline has been brutal because of it.

They had to do something, and this has already been in trialed on football and tennis for quite a while and those haven't become chaotic and I don't see any threads saying anyone's suddenly lost their edge. I haven't even seen one where anyone has noticed it.

Anyway I'm not the BF PR dept, traders will have a greater chance of being matched, and punters will see more money available. Times move on.

[ShaunWhite]

BTW what change would you have suggested to stop the I'm-running markets dying a slow death?

[ForFolksSake]

But are people betting in-running based on the weight of money or on real events and TPD?

I would say real events, TPD, drones

[bests3lleruk]

That was very interesting with 'ryans rocket' the even money favourite in a 4-runner chase, unseating the rider at like the second fence, and then it continued to run around riderless and actually over took the eventual 'winner' on the run-in. What was interesting was it still continued to be bet on for small amounts at 1000 while it jumped around? I'm wondering if that is bots backing it, or something to do with automation and Total performance data? Because I kept seeing the 1000 lighting up (albeit for relatively small amounts I take it) - but at the end on inspection I saw £290 was matched at 1000.

Maybe someones doesnt know the rules

what do you mean?

[ShaunWhite]

what do you mean?

Think he means the rule about not having a jockey onboard anymore being a nono.

It's just dumb bots, probably 'greening', 'take profits' and' stoplosses'

Pretty sure the TPD transponders have a kill switch cord attached to the jockey, like they have on motorbikes, so they'd have known.

[ForFolksSake]

what do you mean?

It's just dumb bots, probably 'greening', 'take profits' and' stoplosses'

... or BFcleaning up

[napshnap]

Cancels have always been 0s so manipulators can already flash spoof orders and pull them milliseconds later. But are people betting in-running based on the weight of money or on real events and TPD?

I guess for now the majority are guided by the market data than tpd. I can't back this up obviously, just a guess.

0s delay doesn't mean anyone can get in front of you easier. Everyone will be doing exactly what they did before, just you'll see your offer as being available sooner. Don't you want that?

I don't, Shaun. Those mindless frontrunning assholes are limited by 1 sec for now and I have an opportunity to replace my orders and get matched within this period, but without this limit they gonna frontrun my orders to death, it looks awesome from "the dudes that gonna match my orders" perspective cause they get fronrunning assholes orders too, so, more liqudity for them, but guess what - I'm not gonna feed those edgestealing lazy frontrunning assholes, I'll quit and others'll quit and the dudes will get way worse prices all because of frontrunning assholes market infestation. I can't be the only one who sees the problem.

They've already hammered anyone using HFT (which isn't manipulative, it's just trading everything quickly, maybe using Guardian ) by reducing the number of transactions you can place an hour, no exeptions. That took a lot of market makers out of the game and the volume decline has been brutal because of it.

But there is 5k/h limit now and not so many races per day. I think they'll squeeze in.

They had to do something, and this has already been in trialed on football and tennis for quite a while and those haven't become chaotic and I don't see any threads saying anyone's suddenly lost their edge. I haven't even seen one where anyone has noticed it.

Hracing markets are unique, they feel different, not like footy or tennis ones. I belive my edge'll erode and I'll not fight for it, I'll not run to stay in place. Screw that.

Anyway I'm not the BF PR dept, traders will have a greater chance of being matched, and punters will see more money available. Times move on.

But prices gonna be worse cause of frontrunning parasites. It will level out at some point, but what a point in all of that - just changes for the sake of changes.


Also, I have an unrest feeling that we're giving away a part of our autonomy to bf for peanuts by allowing them to juge the moment when there should be nodelay.


I don't know what can be improved in a market mechanics, to me, as I've already wrote - everything is fine, predictable and transparent enough, I have put down roots and I am not ready for such radical changes.
I can say only obvious things like: more advertising, more work with young people (not lure them in ofcourse but fight for a share of them with those gdamn roobinhood-like apps), show them that sport exchanges are cool too (maybe use famous athletes for this, gamificate some aspects of their products, like bf did with that thingy where you can see and feel markets and place some virtual bets, remember? I liked that app, it was simple yet informative and easy almost instantly accessible).

[ForFolksSake]

Cancels have always been 0s so manipulators can already flash spoof orders and pull them milliseconds later. But are people betting in-running based on the weight of money or on real events and TPD?

I guess for now the majority are guided by the market data than tpd. I can't back this up obviously, just a guess.

0s delay doesn't mean anyone can get in front of you easier. Everyone will be doing exactly what they did before, just you'll see your offer as being available sooner. Don't you want that?

I don't, Shaun. Those mindless frontrunning assholes are limited by 1 sec for now and I have an opportunity to replace my orders and get matched within this period, but without this limit they gonna frontrun my orders to death, it looks awesome from "the dudes that gonna match my orders" perspective cause they get fronrunning assholes orders too, so, more liqudity for them, but guess what - I'm not gonna feed those edgestealing lazy frontrunning assholes, I'll quit and others'll quit and the dudes will get way worse prices all because of frontrunning assholes market infestation. I can't be the only one who sees the problem.

They've already hammered anyone using HFT (which isn't manipulative, it's just trading everything quickly, maybe using Guardian ) by reducing the number of transactions you can place an hour, no exeptions. That took a lot of market makers out of the game and the volume decline has been brutal because of it.

But there is 5k/h limit now and not so many races per day. I think they'll squeeze in.

They had to do something, and this has already been in trialed on football and tennis for quite a while and those haven't become chaotic and I don't see any threads saying anyone's suddenly lost their edge. I haven't even seen one where anyone has noticed it.

Hracing markets are unique, they feel different, not like footy or tennis ones. I belive my edge'll erode and I'll not fight for it, I'll not run to stay in place. Screw that.

Anyway I'm not the BF PR dept, traders will have a greater chance of being matched, and punters will see more money available. Times move on.

But prices gonna be worse cause of frontrunning parasites. It will level out at some point, but what a point in all of that - just changes for the sake of changes.


Also, I have an unrest feeling that we're giving away a part of our autonomy to bf for peanuts by allowing them to juge the moment when there should be nodelay.


I don't know what can be improved in a market mechanics, to me, as I've already wrote - everything is fine, predictable and transparent enough, I have put down roots and I am not ready for such radical changes.
I can say only obvious things like: more advertising, more work with young people (not lure them in ofcourse but fight for a share of them with those gdamn roobinhood-like apps), show them that sport exchanges are cool too (maybe use famous athletes for this, gamificate some aspects of their products, like bf did with that thingy where you can see and feel markets and place some virtual bets, remember? I liked that app, it was simple yet informative and easy almost instantly accessible).

I think the impact of getting rid of the in-play delay means it will be a case of 'survival of the fittest' ... bring it on

[LinusP]

If you don’t enjoy the challenge of something new like this then you are in the wrong game, things have been boring for a while, this is going to be great fun.

My simulations are showing an increase of about 40% in match rates but this is ignoring others, however Betfair are seeing similar increases live having predicted 5%.

[ShaunWhite]

But there is 5k/h limit now and not so many races per day. I think they'll squeeze in.

5k/hr is nothing if you're market making.
10 runners, one 3 minure race, 1 offer per second, cancelling say 80%, that's already over 3,240 transactions. Guardian could do 50/sec, that's 162,000, one 10 runner race.

This equally affects everyone, it's not like someone is getting video 1s ahead of everyone else.

People aren't parasites and arsholes if they're playing by the rules or putting time and effort into using the rules to their advantage. There's no 'spirit of the rules' when money is involved.

[napshnap]

But there is 5k/h limit now and not so many races per day. I think they'll squeeze in.

...
People aren't parasites and arsholes if they're playing by the rules or putting time and effort into using the rules to their advantage. There's no 'spirit of the rules' when money is involved.

I apologize for that, guess LinusP is right, I'm bored (and tired) of the game. Don't wanna evolve and adapt, don't find it interesting anymore. Just want to make bussiness as usual until it dries out completely.

[ForFolksSake]

But there is 5k/h limit now and not so many races per day. I think they'll squeeze in.

...
People aren't parasites and arsholes if they're playing by the rules or putting time and effort into using the rules to their advantage. There's no 'spirit of the rules' when money is involved.

I apologize for that, guess LinusP is right, I'm bored (and tired) of the game. Don't wanna evolve and adapt, don't find it interesting anymore. Just want to make bussiness as usual until it dries out completely.

...."What A Waste"
.... what would you like to do instead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmopROxBnBU

[ShaunWhite]

Just want to make business as usual until it dries out completely.

You might be pleasantly suprised, I don't see why it wouldn't help you too just doing what you do. If you bet and it's not matched it'll just appear sooner and have more change of matching before the price is long gone, if it's going to match then it's the std 1s.

As for spoofing that's dangerous enough in-running, and not much easier if you have to predict that by the time your bet arrives and is acknowledged, the price will still be available or unavailable. If becomes available (ie a take not an offer), it goes into the delay loop, you can't cancel while it's in there, and as soon as it emerges it matches. Your new flashy instant frontrunning just turns into a regular matched bet you didn't want because you can't guarentee just to flash at unavailable prices near the current price. I don't think it's a freebie for the let's say 'the more creative' trader to be polite.

I dont' think we need to be worried about taking on a big behavioral change.

Only one way to find out though. I'll settle for being half as effective if there's double the money around.