Beating a casino

[peachflame]

That sounds like such a frustrating situation, especially after investing so much time and effort. I’ve never taken it to that level, but I’ve had moments where I felt like I’d found a small edge on certain games or patterns, and yeah, the casinos don’t like it one bit. Once I started doing well on a blackjack table over a few visits, and next thing I know, pit boss starts hovering and eventually asked me not to play anymore. Even though I wasn’t counting cards in the strict sense, just using solid basic strategy and maybe betting more aggressively than usual. It left a bad taste.
I’ve been sticking to online casinos after that, mainly because they're less personal and you can jump around. I check out the latest ones and what bonuses are going on to get a bit more value. When I want something fresh, I find the newest online casinos with bonus offers really helpful for trying my luck on a clean slate. You can check this one, SPAM REMOVED, it’s between my favourites.

You were backed off for just employing basic strategy, not counting cards?

[ShaunWhite]

You were backed off for just employing basic strategy, not counting cards?

You can't card count, casinos use continuous shuffle machines (3-5 decks).

[jamesedwards]

You were backed off for just employing basic strategy, not counting cards?

You can't card count, casinos use continuous shuffle machines (3-5 decks).

Surely you can still count cards in a 3-5 deck shoe? Just waters down the player advantage a bit the more decks you use.

[megarain]

A continuous shuffle machine shuffles the cards after each round of play - maybe 20 cards at most from the stack are taken from the round of play currently being dealt, and placed in the discard tray. They are fed back to the machine after the round is dealt.

All advantage blackjack forums agree a continuous shuffle machine cannot be beaten - unless u somehow know the order of the cards being shuffled etc.

[jamesedwards]

A continuous shuffle machine shuffles the cards after each round of play - maybe 20 cards at most from the stack are taken from the round of play currently being dealt, and placed in the discard tray. They are fed back to the machine after the round is dealt.

All advantage blackjack forums agree a continuous shuffle machine cannot be beaten - unless u somehow know the order of the cards being shuffled etc.

I've never seen this, but then it's been some time since I sat at a blackjack table. Progress, huh?

[ShaunWhite]

Progress, huh?

Reducing risk is the name of the game if you own a casino. I don't think any of us would exactly be welcoming winners if we were owners. Bookmaking the same, if I ran a shop it would be one big win and you're barred . There's a bit of a tenancy for punters to forget these are businesses.

[weemac]

I and a couple of pals used to beat one casino's roulette with great regularity, but we didn't understand why it worked. The very day that they changed the wheel's spin direction from always clockwise to alternating clockwise/anti-clockwise every spin, it fell apart immediately.

[ShaunWhite]

I and a couple of pals used to beat one casino's roulette with great regularity, but we didn't understand why it worked. The very day that they changed the wheel's spin direction from always clockwise to alternating clockwise/anti-clockwise every spin, it fell apart immediately.

I think my casino would have a random speed motor to spin up the wheel and a randomised solonioid to drop the ball. By the 1000th time they do it a croupier can settle in to a predictable weight of spin/rhythm of ball drop. If they also hold the wheel spindle on the same spot habitually then it becomes biased.

'random' meaning a cam reads the bets placed and speed & drop are calculated to avoid them.

[peachflame]

You were backed off for just employing basic strategy, not counting cards?

You can't card count, casinos use continuous shuffle machines (3-5 decks).

I wasn't aware casinos routinely used machines now. Why would any player be refused play at tables where counting cards is impossible?

[ShaunWhite]

I wasn't aware casinos routinely used machines now. Why would any player be refused play at tables where counting cards is impossible?

The MIT Blackjack team made casinos wake up to most of the ways to beat it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Blackjack_Team
Card counting was the assumption but they said they weren't 'strictly' doing it (?) Maybe they were just being a pain in the ass or suspected of some other form of cheating.

[peachflame]

I wasn't aware casinos routinely used machines now. Why would any player be refused play at tables where counting cards is impossible?

The MIT Blackjack team made casinos wake up to most of the ways to beat it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Blackjack_Team
Card counting was the assumption but they said they weren't 'strictly' doing it (?) Maybe they were just being a pain in the ass or suspected of some other form of cheating.

Yeah the MIT group were card counters, but basic strategy is still actively encouraged by casinos. It's surprising that auto-shufflers are now widespread given that they're considered to be bad for business.

[Dublin_Flyer]

I wasn't aware casinos routinely used machines now. Why would any player be refused play at tables where counting cards is impossible?

The MIT Blackjack team made casinos wake up to most of the ways to beat it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_Blackjack_Team
Card counting was the assumption but they said they weren't 'strictly' doing it (?) Maybe they were just being a pain in the ass or suspected of some other form of cheating.

The film 21 is based on that team (with a load of race-washing or something, most Asians became white in the film) It's got very varied reviews but I don't know if it's because of the race changing, Kevin Spacey being in it, or people just not liking it.

I thought it was good for a watch, seeing as there's not too many films out there for the edge over the house kinda angle.

[bobalski]

Card counters are well down the totem pole as far as casino risk factors are concerned, certainly in Asia anyway. Unless a punter is betting 5K a box across 7 boxes, they'd barely raise an eyebrow.

With differentials set at 600K a hand on Baccarat, it poses much more of a risk of skullduggery than a BJ player turning a 0.58 house edge to a similar figure in his favour.

There was a guy touring Asia and Oz casinos who was able to beat the continuous shuffler by sitting in Box 1 and listening to the shuffler as it placed the discards into the slots inside the shuffler. He was colloquially known as the 'shuffle whisperer' and slowly had restrictions placed on him in most jurisdictions. The main way advantage players beat the continuous shufflers was by having Aces and picture cards marked and sitting in Box 1 waiting for an Ace or picture to appear in the slot. Given cards are recycled on these games, they stay in play for long periods of time giving multiple opportunities. It's slow and laborious work but was nullified when casinos started placing brushes in their shoes so the next card out could not be seen.

The biggest BJ 'scam' ever was in Atlantic City by a guy named Don Johnson. Lots of really interesting articles out there which can be googled. He played perfect basic strategy, but never counted cards. He gained his significant edge by negotiating favourable rebates and programs with marketing staff. When he kept winning surveillance teams would count down all the shoes he played and would find he at no stage adjusted his play according to the count, therefore he was allowed to continue playing because the house edge would wear him down in the long run.

The reasons casinos have been victims of multi million dollar scams in EVERY case is by collusion with staff. Sometimes staff are groomed unwittingly to assist the scam by being coerced to break procedure (such as in 'the cutters scam'). Sometimes the staff are 100% in on the scam and as I said, when you can bet up to 600K a hand, it is very lucrative and often greed is the contributing factor in bringing the scam to light.

By way of background, I spent the last 25 years of my working life in casinos and the last 20 years in surveillance. My last job before retiring was as Director of Surveillance at a Singapore casino which was inside the top 10 in GGR in the world. Things move quickly and I've no doubt other scams have come to light in the 3 years since i retired, but I can safely say I've seen or heard pretty much everything that can happen in a casino from a dodgy viewpoint.

[ShaunWhite]

Nice info bobalski, very interesting.

[henbet22]

Great stuff.
Location 4 star hotel with a view of the pyramids and a small casino a long time ago.

I remember watching the normally completely underutilised and slightly bored staff nail 00 3 times out of 10 spins. It was amazing and much more than a party trick!! They were buzzing as they swept up all the cash until the table realised what was afoot and adjusted their bets accordingly!!