Please tell me there's a moment it just clicks into place!

[Consty1]

trading is the world's hardest job methinks. You are up against rocket scientists I'm afraid, and they aren't mucking around.

See If I'd have known this prior to starting, well I'd have probably never bothered tbh. I was under no illusion it was going to be easy...I also didn't think it'd be this hard.

The problem is my first exposure to trading was the Bet Angel videos on Youtube and how easy Peter made everything look. I know I always put 100% effort in if I want to achieve something and thought I could get somewhere by doing so. To not see any real progress is a kick in the balls though. I clearly hadn't accounted for intelligence levels.

[Iron]

I'd always been a football and tennis anorak, so I devoted myself to these two sports. I have confidence that my knowledge of these sports, formguides and historical analysis enables me to be involved at the front of price movements.

Would you trade a football or tennis match where you knew nothing about the teams/players?

Or is form knowledge a crucial part of your trading?

I made many mistakes learning, it does make sense after a while, but you need to remove negative thoughts and just concentrate on the markets. The money will come once you've mastered this.

A nice analogy I once read is with attracting a woman you fancy.

If you try too hard, she won't be interested. But if you relax and be yourself, you might find you attract her without even trying. Similarly, if you try too hard to get ticks, it may end up having the opposite effect, as you'll make decisions based on frustration, and try to take more than the market is offering...

Jeff

[Iron]

Trading is not the equivalent of playing blindfolded 3D chess against Gary Kasparov! You just find a simple method that works, and you exploit it with great discipline and diligence.

At any given moment, the market is either saying to you 'Trade me - The signs are right' or 'Here be dragons - Only enter if you're feeling lucky! '. So in the first instance, you execute a simple trade, and in the latter you sit on your hands (which is harder than it sounds!). Simple!

An analogy. In football, you have players like Christiano Ronaldo, who can do all sorts of fancy tricks as well as doing the simple stuff well. But you've also got guys like Darren Fletcher who do nothing particularly original or deep, but still manage to pocket a nice wage each week... You don't need to be a Christiano Ronaldo to make a consistent profit - focus on doing something simple extremely well, and then build from there...

Jeff

To not see any real progress is a kick in the balls though. I clearly hadn't accounted for intelligence levels.

[Consty1]

An analogy. In football, you have players like Christiano Ronaldo, who can do all sorts of fancy tricks as well as doing the simple stuff well. But you've also got guys like Darren Fletcher who do nothing particularly original or deep, but still manage to pocket a nice wage each week... You don't need to be a Christiano Ronaldo to make a consistent profit - focus on doing something simple extremely well, and then build from there...

So where would Phil Neville fit in in all of this?

[Iron]

At the risk of going off-topic...

Well, Fergie generally doesn't generally sell players because their skill level makes their team mates jealous!

But despite the vacant look Neville's his eyes, I'd say he's a good player! I'd put in him the same category as Darren Fletcher; Wikipedia says this about Neville:

'Neville's attitude, work-rate and willingness to play anywhere has seen him become one of manager David Moyes' favourites.'

Jeff

PS On a point of utterly useless trivia, did you know that the Nevilles's dad's name is Neville Neville?

So where would Phil Neville fit in in all of this?

[Consty1]

PS On a point of utterly useless trivia, did you know that the Nevilles's dad's name is Neville Neville?

Yep, Sky even interviewed him during Gary's testimonial.

[CaerMyrddin]

That's one big advice I'd give you - what's your favourite sport?

I remember you told me same thing when I started and I'm still grateful. It enabled me to start winning constantly and learning in greater depth the mechanics of other markets.

I'm a self-employed trader, but after 12 months of having opened my BF account, my P+L showed -£12500

I never lost such a big amount, but yes you'll have to pay your tuition fees. Anyway, I always like when people talk about their losses. My biggest loss was in the 'early days' when I was trading preoff, didn't close and got caught against a first minute goal. I then decided to 'offset' the loss by backing the winning team with an amount that would alow me to 'zero' the market if the win. Many of us have been at this situation and you can guess easily, a last minute goal slashed my bank!

Curiously this was a big turnover point, as it tightened my discipline (who'd like to feel the same again?) and in a subtle way made me better. I had thoughts of giving up and that made me realise I didn't want to give up, so I'd better improve my skills.

[Iron]

Consty -

Here's something else you might want to reflect upon.

When I first started reading about trading, one of the best pieces of advice I came across was this:

'Want what the market wants'.

If you've entered a back and the market rises, do you want the market to come back down again? Or are you neutral, thinking as follows?

'No big deal. The market didn't want to go in the direction of my trade. I'll just close my trade, reappraise the situation, and try to work out what the market does want to do'.

There's a saying in financial markets that also applies to Betfair: Don't fight the tape!

Jeff

[to75ne]

consty with respect you joint this forum in august of this year. you have not been trading for more than 5 minutes. you have not watched and or traded enough races yet.

there are lots of different factors that effect these markets, seasonal, flat or jumps, class, trip etc etc etc.

you will start making sense of it when you have traded and watched a lot more races. at the moment you have just scratched the surface. you aint going to crack it in 4 months, your gonna take a lot more time than that.

personally i have always thought the biggest drawback to trading is the thousands of hours ive spent doing it. you can never get time back.

if you want it, your have to pay for it in time. thats the real price you will pay.

[Iron]

consty with respect you joint this forum in august of this year. you have not been trading for more than 5 minutes.

I'm sure that experience can help, but IMHO a beginner with a little technique and a lot of discipline can go a long way.

As I recall, Adam Heathcote hadn't been trading for years and years when he started to make good profits every day.

there are lots of different factors that effect these markets, seasonal, flat or jumps, class, trip etc etc etc.

Those things will affect the characteristics of the market.

But what the chart of a Class 6 jumps favourite 'should' look like doesn't matter IMHO - I'd rather focus on what the one I'm trading right now does look like!

Jeff

[to75ne]

hello jeff,

consty with respect you joint this forum in august of this year. you have not been trading for more than 5 minutes.

I'm sure that experience can help, but IMHO a beginner with a little technique and a lot of discipline can go a long way.

As I recall, Adam Heathcote hadn't been trading for years and years when he started to make good profits every day.

Does happen but how many Adam Heathcoat’s compared to us lesser mortals? The evidence although anecdotal is not that many, in my opinion very rare, and no disrespect to consty but he does not seem to be displaying any early signs of heathcoteness.

there are lots of different factors that effect these markets, seasonal, flat or jumps, class, trip etc etc etc.

Those things will affect the characteristics of the market.

But what the chart of a Class 6 jumps favourite 'should' look like doesn't matter IMHO - I'd rather focus on what the one I'm trading right now does look like!

Jeff

I would go along with that to a point. If you have an idea of how some factors can influence a market at a given time, you now have an extra arrow in your quiver. A real simple example from today – the mad bomber.

[Iron]

Does happen but how many Adam Heathcoat’s compared to us lesser mortals? The evidence although anecdotal is not that many, in my opinion very rare, and no disrespect to consty but he does not seem to be displaying any early signs of heathcoteness.

By definition, very few people reach the top in any profession (and I think it's safe to say that Adam was near the top).

But it does illustrate that you don't necessarily need months and months of experience to get anywhere. IMHO, the main reason people succeed after persevering for a while is twofold:

A. They find a method with an edge

and

B. They apply themselves with discipline

In my opinion, it's unlikely that someone will succeed after months and months of trying due to them learning lots of knowledge, or developing an intuitive feel for the market that can only be acquired from hundreds of hours of chart watching.

I honestly believe that trading's a lot simpler than that...

Jeff

[to75ne]

By definition, very few people reach the top in any profession (and I think it's safe to say that Adam was near the top).

But it does illustrate that you don't necessarily need months and months of experience to get anywhere. IMHO, the main reason people succeed after persevering for a while is twofold:

A. They find a method with an edge

and

B. They apply themselves with discipline

In my opinion, it's unlikely that someone will succeed after months and months of trying due to them learning lots of knowledge, or developing an intuitive feel for the market that can only be acquired from hundreds of hours of chart watching.

I honestly believe that trading's a lot simpler than that...

Jeff

Jeff

Yeah again I agree up to a point.

I know it illustrates that you don’t necessarily need months and months of experience to get anywhere and you do point out very few get to the top, I would add even less get to the top as quick as Adam did. But I think your being a bit unrealistic; most, the vast majority it seems to me don’t get there that quick.

Its like telling someone if you buy a guitar, and apply your self to learning to play it and be really disciplined, find a style and sound you like, in a few months or so your be as good a Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jeff beck or jimi Hendrix.... Possible but highly improbable.

All 3 of them were naturally great guitarists, in less then a year or so, of picking one up they all were far better players then the people that were teaching them. There are thousands of good guitarists in the world, several hundred as good as the above, but that few hundred had to work hard over a far longer time period to get as good as Beck, Hendrix and Vaughn. Those 3 were born naturals; it was second nature to them.


I don’t believe trading is very complex; the price can go up, go down or stay the same. That’s all it can do, hardly complex. Understanding what is causing the price to move will help in trading, for instance something you often post about, if and when will the price swing/ why did it reverse etc.

It takes most people time to learn (and learn to control themselves) to trade, as it takes most people time to learn most things they have no prior experience of.

tony

[Iron]

Hi Tony

I agree that it generally takes people a while to learn to trade profitably. All I'm saying is that IMHO that's due mainly to their psychological approach, rather than to trading being complicated.

Few people succeed quickly in trading, but few people arrive at trading with a monk-like indifference to whether the market goes against them or in their favour, and the discipline to stick at a particular tried and tested method, even if it gets boring and even if they hit a losing run...

Jeff

[Groovyelms]

Gr8 thread, sadly for most mortals, trading is a hard hard game, But the rewards are.... a way of life...financial freedom... I look forward to getting there someday... god the donkeys are hard work, and i had an ok day today.

Just adding to others missives, I find a break is essential, when I start making mistakes I now stop, go shopping or the gym, relax the mind some.. tomorrow is another day full of oppoutunities