definitly agree jeff.
the psychological thing its the biggest obstacle in my opinion.
if your "inner mind"/ emotions gets control, then you have had it. control of yourself is by far the hardest part of trading.
tony
Please tell me there's a moment it just clicks into place!
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jamesthetrader
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:41 am
I agree that it is the mental side of trading that is the hardest! Taking losses without it affecting me going forward was by far my biggest obsticle starting out and for a good time afterwards I might add.
I also think that it's the size of your losses that affect you negatively....I could trade 12 races profitably on the bounce then have 2-3 losing races that would wipe that profit out, this would annoy me so much as I thought I have to trade 12 races again just to get that back
I feel that if you can keep your losses under control and small then you will find them easier to accept and naturally the winning races you have put you into profit as they are not just paying for losses that were too big in relation to profits.
I really don't believe you have to be that good to trade profitably, if you over think you're strategy you just complicate matters....take a step back clear your head and you will find what works for you, there is no right or wrong way, everyone deals with trading differently.
I also think that it's the size of your losses that affect you negatively....I could trade 12 races profitably on the bounce then have 2-3 losing races that would wipe that profit out, this would annoy me so much as I thought I have to trade 12 races again just to get that back
I feel that if you can keep your losses under control and small then you will find them easier to accept and naturally the winning races you have put you into profit as they are not just paying for losses that were too big in relation to profits.I really don't believe you have to be that good to trade profitably, if you over think you're strategy you just complicate matters....take a step back clear your head and you will find what works for you, there is no right or wrong way, everyone deals with trading differently.
Another thing I done was to have set targets after greening. I'd become totally demoralised after winning £25, then increasing my stakes thinking I'd cracked it, only to lose £30 on the next few events
Therefore, I thought if I can achieve a profit in pure ticks then the profit will automatically follow, so I started to calculate all my stakes on ticks after greening. If I wanted to win £2 per trade and my selection was 1.50 - I'd place a bet of £300, if the selection was 3.80 - I'd place a bet of £152 etc
This meant that any losses would only be £2 per tick, and if I made more ticks than losses, I'd be in profit regardless. This became a big turning point for me because accepting losses is such a huge hurdle to overcome. If you see losses as just ticks and not as hard earned cash, it can make this whole business easier to deal with. Obviously, as you become more successful the tick sizes start to rise
I know some other traders that operate similar staking plans. This is why I've previously asked BA to include a 'Tick size after greening' on the auto stake drop down box, I think it would be a useful addition.
Therefore, I thought if I can achieve a profit in pure ticks then the profit will automatically follow, so I started to calculate all my stakes on ticks after greening. If I wanted to win £2 per trade and my selection was 1.50 - I'd place a bet of £300, if the selection was 3.80 - I'd place a bet of £152 etc
This meant that any losses would only be £2 per tick, and if I made more ticks than losses, I'd be in profit regardless. This became a big turning point for me because accepting losses is such a huge hurdle to overcome. If you see losses as just ticks and not as hard earned cash, it can make this whole business easier to deal with. Obviously, as you become more successful the tick sizes start to rise
I know some other traders that operate similar staking plans. This is why I've previously asked BA to include a 'Tick size after greening' on the auto stake drop down box, I think it would be a useful addition.
Football and it's not even close. I've been trading football a bit based off nothing more than a feel for what's going on and overall just looking for opportunities where I think the market will react. The problem is I don't want to trade most evenings and secondly I watch so much football and enjoy it, I don't want trading to take away from that enjoyment.LeTiss 4pm wrote: That's one big advice I'd give you - what's your favourite sport?
For me personally accepting losses in terms of actual cash amounts is no problem, it's more a frustration of being in too many bad trades as opposed to the financial loss associated with those trades.jamesthetrader wrote:I agree that it is the mental side of trading that is the hardest! Taking losses without it affecting me going forward was by far my biggest obsticle starting out and for a good time afterwards I might add.
I'm basically frustrated at being involved in more losing trades than winning trades, especially when I can't see why the market moved the way it did.
Your strike rate isn't massively important - what matters is whether you have an edge.Consty1 wrote: I'm basically frustrated at being involved in more losing trades than winning trades, especially when I can't see why the market moved the way it did.
I hope you try my suggestion of trading at random - you might be surprised at what you observe.
And you don't need to do much right to move from randomness (where you make a small loss) to profitability...Jeff
Last edited by Iron on Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How you prioritise your time is up to you, and I hope I don't sound like I'm moralising, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs...
Jeff
Jeff
Consty1 wrote: The problem is I don't want to trade most evenings and secondly I watch so much football and enjoy it, I don't want trading to take away from that enjoyment.
Very true but it's not like I can't put my effort into another sport, all it's going to take is hard work, time and patience (I hope). Maybe I will eventually trade football, but I'd like to give horse racing a good shot first.Ferru123 wrote:How you prioritise your time is up to you, and I hope I don't sound like I'm moralising, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs...
Jeff
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runningman
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:18 am
My take on accepting losses -
I'm just starting out in the world of trading really after devoting the past seven years in online poker. When it comes to accepting losses trading and poker go hand in hand. Some points i'd like to raise are:
1: It actually takes time to acclimatise yourself to accept losses. Once you have run so bad you think it is not pysically possible the next time it happens it isn't so bad. I have had some massive downswings in poker over the years but I know this is purly down to short term variance in a sample of a couple of million hands.
2: Just because trades are going against you it does not mean you are doing anything wrong and vice versa, again down to variance. You should not look at a small sample size to determine if you are profitable. I would say a sample size of 1500 trades would be a good starting point to establish an ROI.
3: I would also advise you do not pool all your results together in this sample size i,e seperate horse racing, football etc into seperate samples. I would also advise these are also split into different times of day/day of the week and time of year. Once you start to break down your results like this you can really see where your leaks start to appear. This coupled with actually recording your trades and cross referencing both should be a good leak finding strategy.
John
I'm just starting out in the world of trading really after devoting the past seven years in online poker. When it comes to accepting losses trading and poker go hand in hand. Some points i'd like to raise are:
1: It actually takes time to acclimatise yourself to accept losses. Once you have run so bad you think it is not pysically possible the next time it happens it isn't so bad. I have had some massive downswings in poker over the years but I know this is purly down to short term variance in a sample of a couple of million hands.
2: Just because trades are going against you it does not mean you are doing anything wrong and vice versa, again down to variance. You should not look at a small sample size to determine if you are profitable. I would say a sample size of 1500 trades would be a good starting point to establish an ROI.
3: I would also advise you do not pool all your results together in this sample size i,e seperate horse racing, football etc into seperate samples. I would also advise these are also split into different times of day/day of the week and time of year. Once you start to break down your results like this you can really see where your leaks start to appear. This coupled with actually recording your trades and cross referencing both should be a good leak finding strategy.
John
Good post runningman.
I'm from a poker background myself so over the years I've been able to shrug off losses and treat each new day as a fresh start. As you say in point 1 most serious players have suffered pretty large downswing's and breakeven stretches (I've had an 80k hand breakeven stretch and 100k seems to be standard in todays games). In respect to this we should be mentally prepared for what trading throws at us.
Trading brings it's own unique frustrations, mainly not knowing how to improve and not knowing where you're going wrong. In poker you can work on your game, watch training vids, post hand histories, and talk over key spots with like minded people. You can run through equity calculations and model a whole unique situation and scrutinize it. In trading there's no such means of development to my mind. Strategies aren't discussed (and I can fully understand why)and it seems like a completely secret world. I think recording and reviewing your sessions has to be the best way to improve.
I'm from a poker background myself so over the years I've been able to shrug off losses and treat each new day as a fresh start. As you say in point 1 most serious players have suffered pretty large downswing's and breakeven stretches (I've had an 80k hand breakeven stretch and 100k seems to be standard in todays games). In respect to this we should be mentally prepared for what trading throws at us.
Trading brings it's own unique frustrations, mainly not knowing how to improve and not knowing where you're going wrong. In poker you can work on your game, watch training vids, post hand histories, and talk over key spots with like minded people. You can run through equity calculations and model a whole unique situation and scrutinize it. In trading there's no such means of development to my mind. Strategies aren't discussed (and I can fully understand why)and it seems like a completely secret world. I think recording and reviewing your sessions has to be the best way to improve.
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runningman
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:18 am
Hi Consty
Yeah I'm 100% with you on that, there is so little quality information out there on trading but I don't see that as a bad thing. I was a mentor for one of the leading UK poker staking sites and its pretty easy to turn a complete beginner into a profitable player within a short space of time. With so much information out there it can only benefit the sites as the player pool has come closer together in terms of skill and everyone rakes a hell of a lot more.
I have actually switched to trading due to the lack of information. I would advise that some good starting points in are as follows:
1, Read Adam Heathcotes blog
2, Buy the book 'Trading in the zone'
3, Go on the BetAngel Masterclass course
I have been reading up on trading and practising for the last six years but have only took the plunge recently. I am pretty sure I will be booking the masterclass course on the 13th December
John
Yeah I'm 100% with you on that, there is so little quality information out there on trading but I don't see that as a bad thing. I was a mentor for one of the leading UK poker staking sites and its pretty easy to turn a complete beginner into a profitable player within a short space of time. With so much information out there it can only benefit the sites as the player pool has come closer together in terms of skill and everyone rakes a hell of a lot more.
I have actually switched to trading due to the lack of information. I would advise that some good starting points in are as follows:
1, Read Adam Heathcotes blog
2, Buy the book 'Trading in the zone'
3, Go on the BetAngel Masterclass course
I have been reading up on trading and practising for the last six years but have only took the plunge recently. I am pretty sure I will be booking the masterclass course on the 13th December
John
Peter Webb is an absolute exception, because most traders are in it for themselves. Once they have worked hard to define an edge, why should they share it with someone else?runningman wrote: Yeah I'm 100% with you on that, there is so little quality information out there on trading
If there were lots of books out there, 99% would be written by somebody who's shit at trading, who knew they could make more money by simply writing a book about it
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runningman
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:18 am
Hi LeTiss
Thats why I mentioned the Betangel Masterclass as a main resource when getting started. I also see successful traders point of view, if they have done the work they should reap the rewards!!
I actually see the lack of information as a good thing, this is what gaurantees long term profit for the people that actually put the work in which is what I intend to do
John
Thats why I mentioned the Betangel Masterclass as a main resource when getting started. I also see successful traders point of view, if they have done the work they should reap the rewards!!
I actually see the lack of information as a good thing, this is what gaurantees long term profit for the people that actually put the work in which is what I intend to do
John
How are you doing Consty? Are you closer to where you want to be?
Here's a thought for you. You can either fight the market (which is pointless unless you've got a big bank and are an expert in the dark art of market manipulation), or you can use the aikido approach, and blend with the market and use its own force against it.
At any given time when you have an open trade, ask yourself if you can answer the question 'What does the market want?'. If you can, are you giving the market what it wants? And if you can't, why are you even in the market?
That might sound like superstitious mumbo jumbo, but it makes sense if you think about it...
Jeff
Here's a thought for you. You can either fight the market (which is pointless unless you've got a big bank and are an expert in the dark art of market manipulation), or you can use the aikido approach, and blend with the market and use its own force against it.
At any given time when you have an open trade, ask yourself if you can answer the question 'What does the market want?'. If you can, are you giving the market what it wants? And if you can't, why are you even in the market?
That might sound like superstitious mumbo jumbo, but it makes sense if you think about it...
Jeff
Consty1 wrote: I'm basically frustrated at being involved in more losing trades than winning trades, especially when I can't see why the market moved the way it did.
I'm still struggling and usually a major leak gets temporarily fixed and replaced by another. I've been working on a couple of strategies and just focusing on one particular horse.
I seem to be having a major issue with stop losses now which strangely wasn't an issue at all when I started out. I try and manually place a stop loss for each trade I enter but that sometimes restricts me when the market skips back triggering my stop loss only for the market to then move sharply in the direction I'd anticipated. I'm fine with the stop loss being triggered but it's then getting back into the market quick enough that I'm having problems with. It's usually a disaster if I don't set a stop loss as it usually entails me trying to get out at a 1 or 2 tick loss and the market just running and running and me scrambling behind it finally exiting 8 ticks later!
It would be great if BA had stop loss without onsetting in it's global options, I think that would really help me out.
I seem to be having a major issue with stop losses now which strangely wasn't an issue at all when I started out. I try and manually place a stop loss for each trade I enter but that sometimes restricts me when the market skips back triggering my stop loss only for the market to then move sharply in the direction I'd anticipated. I'm fine with the stop loss being triggered but it's then getting back into the market quick enough that I'm having problems with. It's usually a disaster if I don't set a stop loss as it usually entails me trying to get out at a 1 or 2 tick loss and the market just running and running and me scrambling behind it finally exiting 8 ticks later!
It would be great if BA had stop loss without onsetting in it's global options, I think that would really help me out.