21 yr old looking for all round advice
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jamesedwards
- Posts: 5217
- Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:16 pm
I sympathise with the difficulties which you have experienced. I cannot do pre-race trading (like nearly everybody) and the ladder doesn't fit my way of looking at things. I have received no benefit whatsoever from viewing videos from BA or any other source.
There is too much talk on this forum likening financial trading with sports trading (betting.) There is no similarity between the two except that they are both ways for most people to lose money. James makes a good point asking why you want do do this. If your experience is financials why not stick to that and stop coming on here with your pompous, grumpy posts?
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wearthefoxhat
- Posts: 3658
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am
If the OP has been "scared off" they'll have to grow a thicker skin to navigate the murky corporate world. The interest in learning something new that others are/have been successful at, is also a good way to go, although responses have been varied.
On that point, GPT wants to add it's tuppence worth:
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Welcome aboard — you’ve picked a fascinating rabbit hole… just don’t expect it to be lined with gold coins on day one
A few honest pointers from someone who’s been around the exchange block a while:
1. Skip the expensive courses (for now)
Most paid courses recycle what’s already free on YouTube and forums, with a shiny PDF and a big promise attached. Bet Angel’s own videos, forum posts, and recorded webinars are genuinely top-tier. If you can’t make money with the free stuff, a course won’t magically fix it.
2. Start with ONE market, ONE approach
Horse racing is perfect, but don’t try to trade everything. Pick:
One race type (UK win markets, ideally 8–14 runners)
One time window (e.g. last 10 mins pre-off)
One simple idea (scalping, momentum, or order-flow following — not all three)
Depth beats variety every time.
3. Paper trade longer than feels comfortable
Everyone rushes this bit. Don’t.
Use £2 stakes for weeks, even months. Your job early on isn’t to make money — it’s to not do stupid things when the market moves against you. That skill pays the bills later.
4. “Following the money” is harder than it looks
Big money often hides, spoofs, or moves late. What you’re really learning is:
How prices behave when they’re about to move
When money stays vs when it pulls
That only comes from screen time. There’s no shortcut.
5. Keep a brutally honest log
Not just results — note:
Why you entered
Why you exited
What the market did after you got out
Patterns (good and bad) jump out surprisingly fast.
6. Treat this like a business experiment, not a last roll of the dice
Give yourself a fixed period (say 6–12 months), a fixed bank, and clear rules. If it works — brilliant. If not, you’ll still come out sharper, more disciplined, and very employable.
Plenty of people make Betfair work — but the common trait isn’t intelligence or secret strategies. It’s patience, repetition, and emotional control.
Stick around, ask questions, and don’t believe anyone who tells you it’s easy. If it were, we’d all be on a yacht arguing about the going at Ascot
Good luck — and enjoy the process.
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....and this is me....
Some of the above sentiments have already been mentioned on the thread, good to see some of them endorsed.
----
On that point, GPT wants to add it's tuppence worth:
----
Welcome aboard — you’ve picked a fascinating rabbit hole… just don’t expect it to be lined with gold coins on day one
A few honest pointers from someone who’s been around the exchange block a while:
1. Skip the expensive courses (for now)
Most paid courses recycle what’s already free on YouTube and forums, with a shiny PDF and a big promise attached. Bet Angel’s own videos, forum posts, and recorded webinars are genuinely top-tier. If you can’t make money with the free stuff, a course won’t magically fix it.
2. Start with ONE market, ONE approach
Horse racing is perfect, but don’t try to trade everything. Pick:
One race type (UK win markets, ideally 8–14 runners)
One time window (e.g. last 10 mins pre-off)
One simple idea (scalping, momentum, or order-flow following — not all three)
Depth beats variety every time.
3. Paper trade longer than feels comfortable
Everyone rushes this bit. Don’t.
Use £2 stakes for weeks, even months. Your job early on isn’t to make money — it’s to not do stupid things when the market moves against you. That skill pays the bills later.
4. “Following the money” is harder than it looks
Big money often hides, spoofs, or moves late. What you’re really learning is:
How prices behave when they’re about to move
When money stays vs when it pulls
That only comes from screen time. There’s no shortcut.
5. Keep a brutally honest log
Not just results — note:
Why you entered
Why you exited
What the market did after you got out
Patterns (good and bad) jump out surprisingly fast.
6. Treat this like a business experiment, not a last roll of the dice
Give yourself a fixed period (say 6–12 months), a fixed bank, and clear rules. If it works — brilliant. If not, you’ll still come out sharper, more disciplined, and very employable.
Plenty of people make Betfair work — but the common trait isn’t intelligence or secret strategies. It’s patience, repetition, and emotional control.
Stick around, ask questions, and don’t believe anyone who tells you it’s easy. If it were, we’d all be on a yacht arguing about the going at Ascot
Good luck — and enjoy the process.
----
....and this is me....
Some of the above sentiments have already been mentioned on the thread, good to see some of them endorsed.
----
Who pulled your chain?Safeway wrote: ↑Fri Jan 16, 2026 9:14 pmI sympathise with the difficulties which you have experienced. I cannot do pre-race trading (like nearly everybody) and the ladder doesn't fit my way of looking at things. I have received no benefit whatsoever from viewing videos from BA or any other source.
There is too much talk on this forum likening financial trading with sports trading (betting.) There is no similarity between the two except that they are both ways for most people to lose money. James makes a good point asking why you want do do this. If your experience is financials why not stick to that and stop coming on here with your pompous, grumpy posts?
Not that it's really any business of yours, but I wanted to generate some extra tax free income, as all my other activities attract too much taxation.
And seeing as everyone in this industry is busy promoting how easy it is to make money that's how I ended up here...now get back in your hole.
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JuiceyJones
- Posts: 195
- Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2020 3:00 pm
Plenty of people make Betfair work — but the common trait isn’t intelligence or secret strategies. It’s patience, repetition, and emotional control.wearthefoxhat wrote: ↑Fri Jan 16, 2026 10:31 pmIf the OP has been "scared off" they'll have to grow a thicker skin to navigate the murky corporate world. The interest in learning something new that others are/have been successful at, is also a good way to go, although responses have been varied.
On that point, GPT wants to add it's tuppence worth:
----
Welcome aboard — you’ve picked a fascinating rabbit hole… just don’t expect it to be lined with gold coins on day one
A few honest pointers from someone who’s been around the exchange block a while:
1. Skip the expensive courses (for now)
Most paid courses recycle what’s already free on YouTube and forums, with a shiny PDF and a big promise attached. Bet Angel’s own videos, forum posts, and recorded webinars are genuinely top-tier. If you can’t make money with the free stuff, a course won’t magically fix it.
2. Start with ONE market, ONE approach
Horse racing is perfect, but don’t try to trade everything. Pick:
One race type (UK win markets, ideally 8–14 runners)
One time window (e.g. last 10 mins pre-off)
One simple idea (scalping, momentum, or order-flow following — not all three)
Depth beats variety every time.
3. Paper trade longer than feels comfortable
Everyone rushes this bit. Don’t.
Use £2 stakes for weeks, even months. Your job early on isn’t to make money — it’s to not do stupid things when the market moves against you. That skill pays the bills later.
4. “Following the money” is harder than it looks
Big money often hides, spoofs, or moves late. What you’re really learning is:
How prices behave when they’re about to move
When money stays vs when it pulls
That only comes from screen time. There’s no shortcut.
5. Keep a brutally honest log
Not just results — note:
Why you entered
Why you exited
What the market did after you got out
Patterns (good and bad) jump out surprisingly fast.
6. Treat this like a business experiment, not a last roll of the dice
Give yourself a fixed period (say 6–12 months), a fixed bank, and clear rules. If it works — brilliant. If not, you’ll still come out sharper, more disciplined, and very employable.
Plenty of people make Betfair work — but the common trait isn’t intelligence or secret strategies. It’s patience, repetition, and emotional control.
Stick around, ask questions, and don’t believe anyone who tells you it’s easy. If it were, we’d all be on a yacht arguing about the going at Ascot
Good luck — and enjoy the process.
----
....and this is me....
Some of the above sentiments have already been mentioned on the thread, good to see some of them endorsed.
----
I think lack of novelty puts a lot people off sticking with it through the long term. This is one of the few times that i have agreed with Skynet.
< 5% of accounts isn't plenty of people...what does that make the 95% who don't!?
Its beliefs like this that keep people gambling...it reminds me of that line that people who buy lottery tickets say "well someone as to win it", yes someone probably will but that doesn't make a ticket have positive expected value...
Its beliefs like this that keep people gambling...it reminds me of that line that people who buy lottery tickets say "well someone as to win it", yes someone probably will but that doesn't make a ticket have positive expected value...
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wearthefoxhat
- Posts: 3658
- Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:55 am
With lottery or scratch-card gambling, "IT COULD BE YOU" was a successful advertising campaign that caught the imagination, leaning into the pyschology of HOPE. The buyer knows it's millions to one, but, are willing to throw a couple of sovs at a £100+ million rollover.
Casino gambling can be argued to be a night out/social event, but some enjoy the allure and swop the house edge on slots, table games for the experience, with the IT COULD BE YOU mentality thrown in for good measure.
Sports trading/racing/stock market-forex trading is thought to be more skilled, as there is more opinion based algorithms folded into the markets. More consistent winning is likely, but it's a zero sum game, including commission, so will have casualties that might ordinarily win.
Goobs wrote: ↑Sat Jan 17, 2026 7:58 am< 5% of accounts isn't plenty of people...what does that make the 95% who don't!?
Its beliefs like this that keep people gambling...it reminds me of that line that people who buy lottery tickets say "well someone as to win it", yes someone probably will but that doesn't make a ticket have positive expected value...
The exchange is a place to build an edge and create your own expected value, so not sure how you compare it to a lottery. A 1 in 20 chance of doing this isn’t bad, when you consider how many people probably interview for the same traditional job with less earning potential.
You only have to look on any job site these days, companies want you to give them the world on a stick and pay you peanuts in return.
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ruthlessimon
- Posts: 2218
- Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:54 pm
The real question isn’t “job vs trading”, but how to pursue trading in a way where failure doesn’t damage future options.
Yes, I think a lot of people are getting shirty about the cold hard facts, more people lose money than they win money. What OP was even asking to begin with, should he get a job or pursue a life of gambling, and I don't think there is anyone on here who would or should be recommending that!ruthlessimon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 17, 2026 1:06 pmThe real question isn’t “job vs trading”, but how to pursue trading in a way where failure doesn’t damage future options.
Period.
I understand why this thread includes warnings about how hard it is to get an edge, and why some people are sceptical. Those views usually come from negative experiences, and they’re sensible points to take on board if you are starting out.
But if I had taken on board all the negatives I was told at various point of my career, I would have achieved nothing useful. I actively encourage my children to take risks and make mistakes and show them the benefits of doing so, in whatever they do.
I was trading long before there was any specialist software. In the early days on Betfair there was no API and no off-the-shelf automation, I still made money. But I wanted had to find a way to deal with repetitive tasks and to scale what I was already doing manually. The software wasn’t conceived as a way to exploit a market; it emerged from practical trading needs and, over time, helped demonstrate what was possible on an exchange and has helped many. I'm really proud of that.
It’s also worth being clear that I haven’t held a majority stake in Bet Angel for nearly a decade, and my lifetime trading profits using it are vastly higher than anything thrown around when people talk about the business being Bet Angel.
That fact aside, Bet Angel has only ever succeeded because its users succeed. In an ideal world, the most aligned model would be to let traders use the software for free and take a share of their profits, but Betfair simply doesn’t support that kind of arrangement. But that would be the best model I think.
When we did some work with Betfair Australia, we were able to see aggregated data that showed Bet Angel users were net positive overall. We believe the same is true in the UK, although Betfair has never shared equivalent figures here. What is clear from the data we have seen is that API users as a group are significantly more profitable than users betting via the website, and at the bottom of the pile are bets placed via mobile apps.
With that in mind It’s also worth addressing the often-quoted claim that “only 5% of people win”. That figure is almost always wrong. Even ESMA data published via the FCA shows that the proportion of profitable participants in financial markets is materially higher than that, and betting exchanges are no different in principle. Quoting a single low percentage is usually a way of shutting down discussion rather than reflecting how these markets actually work.
Another thing I learned very quickly when teaching people is that giving everyone the same, clearly defined set of instructions does not lead to the same outcomes. I’ve seen people follow identical rules, with the same tools, and end up with completely different results. That difference usually comes down to execution, discipline, risk tolerance, and how people react when things don’t go their way. This goes a long way towards explaining why some people make it work and others don’t, even when the starting point appears identical.
One of the reasons exchanges are so attractive in the first place is their structure. With direct market access and very low frictional costs, you can speculate with minimal transaction costs compared to traditional bookmakers or many financial trading platforms. Tight spreads, transparent pricing, instant settlement and the ability to recycle capital make exchanges a uniquely efficient environment if you know what you’re doing.
Finally, it’s worth being realistic about expectations. People who have made hundreds of thousands or millions are not going to hand over an automation file that prints money for free. That’s never how this has worked. What you will find, particularly on this forum, is that many successful traders are willing to share key concepts, building blocks, and ways of thinking that allow others to develop their own approach from a lower base. What you do with that information, and how you apply it, is a personal choice that has to fit your own attitude to risk, temperament, and preferences.
So while caution around hype is healthy, it’s important to remember why these tools were created but also that extreme views at either end are not that helpful.
For those that are struggling or have struggled, perhaps take a step back and start probing some of the long term experts here, who have some really valuable insight and experience.
After all, they have been through the same thing as you, but are just a bit further down the road.
But if I had taken on board all the negatives I was told at various point of my career, I would have achieved nothing useful. I actively encourage my children to take risks and make mistakes and show them the benefits of doing so, in whatever they do.
I was trading long before there was any specialist software. In the early days on Betfair there was no API and no off-the-shelf automation, I still made money. But I wanted had to find a way to deal with repetitive tasks and to scale what I was already doing manually. The software wasn’t conceived as a way to exploit a market; it emerged from practical trading needs and, over time, helped demonstrate what was possible on an exchange and has helped many. I'm really proud of that.
It’s also worth being clear that I haven’t held a majority stake in Bet Angel for nearly a decade, and my lifetime trading profits using it are vastly higher than anything thrown around when people talk about the business being Bet Angel.
That fact aside, Bet Angel has only ever succeeded because its users succeed. In an ideal world, the most aligned model would be to let traders use the software for free and take a share of their profits, but Betfair simply doesn’t support that kind of arrangement. But that would be the best model I think.
When we did some work with Betfair Australia, we were able to see aggregated data that showed Bet Angel users were net positive overall. We believe the same is true in the UK, although Betfair has never shared equivalent figures here. What is clear from the data we have seen is that API users as a group are significantly more profitable than users betting via the website, and at the bottom of the pile are bets placed via mobile apps.
With that in mind It’s also worth addressing the often-quoted claim that “only 5% of people win”. That figure is almost always wrong. Even ESMA data published via the FCA shows that the proportion of profitable participants in financial markets is materially higher than that, and betting exchanges are no different in principle. Quoting a single low percentage is usually a way of shutting down discussion rather than reflecting how these markets actually work.
Another thing I learned very quickly when teaching people is that giving everyone the same, clearly defined set of instructions does not lead to the same outcomes. I’ve seen people follow identical rules, with the same tools, and end up with completely different results. That difference usually comes down to execution, discipline, risk tolerance, and how people react when things don’t go their way. This goes a long way towards explaining why some people make it work and others don’t, even when the starting point appears identical.
One of the reasons exchanges are so attractive in the first place is their structure. With direct market access and very low frictional costs, you can speculate with minimal transaction costs compared to traditional bookmakers or many financial trading platforms. Tight spreads, transparent pricing, instant settlement and the ability to recycle capital make exchanges a uniquely efficient environment if you know what you’re doing.
Finally, it’s worth being realistic about expectations. People who have made hundreds of thousands or millions are not going to hand over an automation file that prints money for free. That’s never how this has worked. What you will find, particularly on this forum, is that many successful traders are willing to share key concepts, building blocks, and ways of thinking that allow others to develop their own approach from a lower base. What you do with that information, and how you apply it, is a personal choice that has to fit your own attitude to risk, temperament, and preferences.
So while caution around hype is healthy, it’s important to remember why these tools were created but also that extreme views at either end are not that helpful.
For those that are struggling or have struggled, perhaps take a step back and start probing some of the long term experts here, who have some really valuable insight and experience.
After all, they have been through the same thing as you, but are just a bit further down the road.